Re: MD Biological - Terrorism?

From: Platt Holden (
Date: Sat Dec 11 2004 - 01:12:51 GMT

  • Next message: Mark Steven Heyman: "MD Understanding Quality And Power"

    Good evening Arlo,

    > > They are dedicated to destroying our free society, replacing it with a
    > > totalitarian society.

    > Here you seem to agree that it is a clash of static social values, with the
    > use of biological force as a tool (they initiate (supposedly) with it, and
    > we respond with it). Yes?

    Yes. Terrorists are biological "tools" of a radical element in Muslim
    society. As Pirsig says, you meet biological force with force.

    > > Physical violence (murder) threatens the social fabric. Totalitarian
    > > societies depend on physical violence, i.e., biological terrorism, to
    > > survive.
    > OK, again, biological force is a weapon of static social patterns in
    > conflict. Or used by the police (either OUR police or THEIR police) to
    > enforce static social patterns.
    > Do you not feel that our society depends on the implied threat of physical
    > violence to survive? If we did not have laws, punishment, and imprisonment,
    > wouldn't our society disintegrate? Hell, isn't "capital punishment" an
    > example of our society using physical violence to survive? Isn't that the
    > purpose of the laws? So I would accept the argument that "totalitarian
    > societies depend on a much greater, and more direct use of, physical
    > violence, i.e., biological "force", to survive compared to our society. But
    > to imply that our society (or ANY society) makes NO USE of physical
    > violence (or the implied threat of physical violence) runs counter to the
    > enforcement of any social code. Yes or no?

    Yes. Societies are threatened both internally and externally by biological
    forces. Regardless of the source, to survive a society must meet force
    with force.

    > Also, how is the US's historical behavior in Chile (for one specific
    > example), NOT a counter example of our society using biological force to
    > ensure the survivial of totalitarian social patterns? Does our use of
    > biological force, what many in Chile and across the globe see as
    > "terrorism", not count?

    Last time I looked, Chile was a democratic republic. Is that a problem?

    > > Do you think all social patterns are morally equal, that a free society >
    > > is
    > as good as a totalitarian society? I hope not.
    > Not at all (I am saddened that you did not know this by now), and I am
    > beginning to think that "Flow" (Csikszentmihalyi) is a very interesting
    > (and high quality) way to think about comparing static social patterns.
    > Using this as a measure, for example, I would argue that totalitarian
    > societies are less moral than democracies, not simply because of their
    > economic marketplace structure, but because their social patterns leave
    > less opportunity for its citizens to engage in "flow" activies.

    Whole-heartedly agree. "Flow" describes what it's like to be influenced by
    DQ. I think Csikszentmihalyi, Maslow and Pirsig make a great team. If
    everyone absorbed and tried to live by what this trio say, many problems
    would be eliminated.

    > But, "flow" aside, here again you seem to agree that this is a clash of
    > static social patterns, and that biological force is a weapon being
    > employed (by both sides) in this conflict. No?

    Yes. I would simply add that a society has the moral right to defend
    itself from biological forces threatened or initiated against it from
    within or without. Agree?


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