From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Thu Dec 16 2004 - 09:35:14 GMT
Mark,
Zen and the Art of Bus-Driving - I like it.
Art in everything - not a shadow of a doubt in my mind.
(But that could just turn into a debate about the semantics and etymology of
the word "Art" "Rta" "Rt" "Rite" Right" "Good" "Value" "Moral" "Quality",
etc, as Pirsig has shown.)
I (like you ?) do not see Art as a separate level, but part of the
relationship between levels, and furthermore I cannot conceive of Art
without Intellect anywhere ? I see Art as evidence of Intellect in fact,
though I guess when I say that I'm using a pretty wide defintion of
intellect. The MoQ cannot exist without Intellect (and Art and Quality).
What is interesting here is the idea of abandoning the 4 levels as some kind
of absolute - that is real progress. One new thing I want to say about the
levels is,
The levels chosen to represent the continuum of Quality, are just the
currently stable metaphors for the world we see - some VERY Static SQ's.
They are just imposed by our current thinking and understanding (of the
world), and like anything, will evolve. I also have an adage which I throw
in to ever discussion about "levels", not just MoQ, but Maslow, Software
Architectures, any procedures, system designs of any kind ...
By axiomatic (mathematical / topological) definition of the words "level" or
"layer" ...
***
Everything has three levels / layers,
(including each level / layer).
***
Each level (of anything) has a region within itself, but is also has a layer
interfacing with each of the levels above and below it, making three layers.
Everything dissolves into onion skins if you're being analytic - 3 levels,
(5) (7) 9 levels, (...) 27, 81, etc ... - so the levels we actually choose
to work with are, well, chosen. An issue I have with the MoQ is that the
Social and Intellectual levels draw much debate about how to understand
their distinction.
I personally see only three (coarse) levels
* Physical
* Biological
* Socio-Intellectual
But as I say, each level is analysable in its own right.
What most of our (human) debate is about is how to characterise "Morals" in
the Socio-Intellectual Level itself.
My view is we'll have more success, if we divide it (the socio-intellectual
level) into three, not two.
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Steven Heyman" <markheyman@infoproconsulting.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 3:04 AM
Subject: RE: MD Code of Art
> dmb and all,
>
> Nice post, David. Thanks.
>
> On 12 Dec 2004 at 17:27, David Buchanan wrote:
> Mark said:
> Of course Pirsig himself said there's no reason to limit the number
> of levels to four; and I kind of like the idea of an Art level, maybe
> between the Social and Intellectual, just ti irk my friend Platt.
> OTOH, as you reminded us, Quality is Realty and everything we do is
> art: philosophy, motorcycle maintenance, kicking stones and raking
> leaves; so a separate Art level becomes redundant.
>
> dmb says:
> Well, we would hope that all our doings are artful, but I definately
> get the impression that this idea has been widely underestimated.
>
> msh says:
> Yeah, I should have said everything we do is art, but some of our
> doin's are more artful than others. Driving back from breakfast this
> morning, my LTC and I discussed this very idea. I suggested there's
> art in everything we do, as long as we do everything as if God was
> watching over our shoulder. She laughed a little, because she knows
> I don't believe in God, per se.
>
> She drives buses for Seattle Metro, so when she realized I was sort
> of serious, she asked what's artistic about driving a bus? I said
> think of the driver who slides smoothly in and out of traffic, who
> starts and stops without a jerk, never misses a stop, opens and
> closes the door at the perfect moment, who arrives and departs never
> an instant too early or too late. When you drive like that you have
> a sense that it's not you who's doing the driving, and you're right.
> Now compare that driver to one who accelerates rapidly and breaks
> sharply, jerking passengers out of their seats, who's always off-
> schedule and so is rushing or waiting, who fumes at other drivers and
> his own passengers. The first is in tune with his environment, and
> has God at his shoulder; the other is alone and at odds with
> everything. The first is performing his task more artfully than the
> second.
>
> I finished with "It doesn't matter whether you stack cans in a
> grocery aisle, or drive a bus, or pound a dent out of a fender, or
> fight fires or raise children. Everything is as artful as you make
> it." The rest of the way home she was silent but smiling.
>
> Best to all,
> Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
> --
> InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors
> Custom Software Solutions for Windows, PDAs, and the Web Since 1983
> Web Site: http://www.infoproconsulting.com
>
> "Thought is only a flash between two long nights, but this flash is
> everything." -- Henri Poincare'
>
>
>
>
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