From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Wed Dec 22 2004 - 01:04:14 GMT
Hi Keith, (Sam, all)
It only takes a second to paste in your message. No problem. I
appreciate your input.
* * * * begin keith:
With total respect to your wider discussion, I wasn't trying to come
up with an analogy for the whole mess. I was simply trying to get to
the point about 'we KNOW action C isn't moral because similar
opportunities A and B have been ignored, or even actively
encouraged'.
My point is, if I tackle my weedy neighbour, even if we used to be
friends and fell out over the desirability of his sun-lounger, then
my actions are still in some way correct. Even if I'm open to the
charge of hypocrisy and cowadice.
I deliberately didn't describe what I meant by 'tackle' as I think
that points towards Sam's points about just ends and un-just means -
which I think you are already covering.
I'm trying to not let you get away with dismissing the possibility
that the action in Iraq isn't in some way the right thing to do,
simply because the USA-UK don't take similar actions elsewhere, and
even when they supported this regime previously (when it suited
their own cause) i.e. They are cowards and hypocrits, but are they
wrong in this case? I think if you can answer that question then you
can get onto the question of how they've gone about it (not very well
in my view).
I think the Corleone and the swingset capture analogies point to the
wider context, and maybe it's not possible to take these questions of
just actions out of context, though that's what I was attempting to
do.
* * * * * end keith
msh says:
I think that we do need to consider context in making moral
judgements in the real world. But I also believe that analogies such
as the one you offered can be valuable in helping us to define our
theories of morality.
Your analogy highlights a valid point, with which I agree completely:
the reason an action is taken has no effect on the morality of the
action. Do you believe that my first attempt to refute the N8-P
somehow involves claiming that acting to remove Hussein is immoral?
Here's what I said:
"The Norton 8-P has two obvious flaws, neither of which you have
directly addressed. The first is that the argument is based on the
combined ideas that the Iraqi people were suffering under Hussein,
and that International Law was failing to protect them. I believe we
had agreed that people suffering under a brutal dictator can't be the
motivation for the US-UK invasion, given the evidence of history."
I don't see this as an attempt to deny the morality of toppling
Saddam Hussein. Sam's conclusion is that the UN was incapable of
doing the right thing, and therefore the USG had to step in and do it
for them. What I'm trying to do above, and with additional
explication, is to show that the USG is not morally qualified to sit
in judgement over the UN; nor was it legally or morally qualified to
act unilaterally to topple Hussein, REGARDLESS of whether or not
toppling Hussein was morally desirable.
As for Sam's Corleone analogy, I was LOL because it's obvious he's
been reading that nogoodnik Chomsky. In fact, the mafioso analogy
very closely parallels the real world situation. The Don acts and,
yes, a shopkeeper realizes some benefit (we'll forget about the other
shops and citizens caught in the crossfire); but, the question is, do
we really want to live in a world run by Don Corleone? Think of
DMB's Sopranos story: it's very creepy, and telling, to realize
that mafia types highly admire the USG's handling of foreign affairs.
Best to all,
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
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