From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Mon Dec 27 2004 - 02:10:15 GMT
Hi Sam,
sam:
I'd love to know if other people also think this is
boring/untrue/irrelevant to understanding the MoQ.
msh says:
I think your paper makes a strong case for the influence of
Schleiermacher on James, whether or not that influence was
consciously noted by James. The similarity between Scheliermacher's
6 points describing mystical experience and Jame's 4 points doing the
same thing is unmistakable. I think DMB's deliberate high opacity on
this point is just meant to piss you off, so don't fall for it.
I also see similarities between Schleiermacher and Pirsig, though I
think S (or is it you) likes to play up the "felt"part of the
mystical experience, perhaps laying the ground work your (his) ideas
of the value of emotions. As far as I know, RMP doesn't refer to his
pre-intellectual awareness as a feeling, and I imagine, that for him
"sensation" is a better word, since it avoids the ambiguity of sense
data versus emotion.
I must say this Schleiermacher connection is helpful in understanding
how RMP might have arrived at the existence of Quality; but to
suggest S was influential in the development of the MOQ seems
untenable, given the evidence presented in your paper. True, the MOQ
is based on the concept of Quality, but, for me, the MOQ's important
contribution of ethical philosophy is the hierarchy of morality
sam:
This just struck me as worth pursuing. Consider the following theses:
a) Schleiermacher created the contemporary understanding of mysticism
as something flowing from felt personal experience;
msh says:
As above, I think "felt" works for you and S, but not for RMP.
b) Schleiermacher described that felt personal experience as
preceding the separation between subject and object;
msh says:
Yes. But I'd say that pre-intellectual awareness is a mystical
experience, not an emotional one.
msh says:
c) Schleiermacher's motivation for this was to extricate religious
epistemology (how we know) from Kant, so that the religious realm is
not discarded.
msh says:
I can see the parallel to Pirsig's desire to salvage the realm of
value from the scientific junk pile, but not so much the connection
to Kant, but this is probably due to everything I've forgotten about
Kant.
I'm also annoyed by S's desire to keep the religious realm from being
discarded; seems like, in so doing, he's more interested in theology
than philosophy. Pirsig wants to save value from science because
doing so makes for a better understanding of the world around us;
that is, he's looking for a better metaphysics.
Anyway, just wanted you to know I read your paper with interest, and
found in it much of value wrt both Pirsig and James.
Best,
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
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On 26 Dec 2004 at 18:22, Sam Norton wrote:
Hi Chin,
> I read the essay again, and it just doesn't make a lot of sense to
> me, but sense it was posted here on the MOQ, I imagine that is just
> me.
Not at all, it was actually put together in a bit of haste, and it
could do with being unpacked and clarified (although the last bit was
deliberately sketchy). Perhaps I'll do a version 2 once I've done the
material on James and Plotinus for DMB.
My basic point is that the structure of the MoQ, specifically the
'pre-intellectual cutting edge of reality', seems to correspond
exactly with Schleiermacher, as presented by Jantzen. Thus,
"immediate consciousness points to the stage before subject and
object are differentiated. There is, Schleiermacher suggests, a
primal stage of consciousness in any experience, a stage before the
objective content is discriminated from the subjective participation.
This consciousness cannot be consciousness of anything, it cannot
have any specificity, because by the time the object of consciousness
has been specified one has already moved away from the primal
undifferentiated state."
This just struck me as worth pursuing. Consider the following theses:
a) Schleiermacher created the contemporary understanding of mysticism
as something flowing from felt personal experience; b) Schleiermacher
described that felt personal experience as preceding the separation
between subject and object; c) Schleiermacher's motivation for this
was to extricate religious epistemology (how we know) from Kant, so
that the religious realm is not discarded.
It seems to me that the above theses are true - although we can argue
all of them, as we no doubt will - but most importantly, if you
substitute Pirsig for Schleiermacher, value for religion, and DQ for
felt personal experience, then you have something remarkably close to
the MoQ. That's what I mean by saying that the MoQ and
Schleiermacher's ideas share a conceptual shape, and that's what I
think is so interesting - is Pirsig simply recapitulating
Schleiermacher? As I said in the essay, I'm not in a position (yet)
to answer the question, but the evidence I've read so far seems
tremendously suggestive. So I thought it was worth sharing the
question to see what other people think. I know DMB thinks this is
tosh, but ever since he discovered the extent of my Christian
convictions, he thinks everything I say is tosh.
I'd love to know if other people also think this is
boring/untrue/irrelevant to understanding the MoQ.
Sam
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