Re: MD The MOQ and Mysticism 101

From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Tue Jan 04 2005 - 02:16:21 GMT

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    Paul,

    (Using "things" in a natural language sense ...)

    Things, without relationships, don't exist - agreed ?
    Things don't exist, independant of relationships - agreed too ?

    Relationships, and things-with-relationships, are "things" which do exist -
    agreed perhaps ?

    None of these is the ding an sich, independantly existing thing of Kant.
    I think the rest is just semantic word games - No ?

    Ian
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Paul Turner" <paul@turnerbc.co.uk>
    To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
    Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 10:38 PM
    Subject: RE: MD The MOQ and Mysticism 101

    > Hi Ian, MSH
    >
    > Ian said:
    > Paul, careful with his words,
    > He does not say
    > "There are no things-in-themselves."
    > "The primary 'reality-in-itself' is nothingness."
    >
    > He says (in the quotes you provide)
    > Primary Reality (things in themselves, out there) are not independent of
    > value or relationships, in fact they are relationships.
    > He doesn't say they don't exist.
    > He is saying they don't exist in an independent SOMist way.
    >
    > Paul:
    > If every thing always turns out be a relationship with something else
    > i.e., exists only within a relationship with something else, then things
    > themselves i.e., with no relationship to anything else, don't exist.
    >
    > Also, with the language he was using, MSH seemed to be talking about a
    > Kantian ding an sich which the MOQ definitely does deny exists.
    >
    > "Quality in the MOQ is monistic and thus is not the same as Kant's
    > "thing in itself" which is the object of a dualism." [Lila's Child
    > p.348]
    >
    > Are there non-SOMist things-in-themselves? What could they possibly be?
    >
    > As for primary reality, this is proposed as Quality and Quality is
    > equated with nothingness. Therefore, the primary reality is nothingness
    > and not "things in themselves, out there," as you state above.
    >
    > Regards
    >
    > Paul
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
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