From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Wed Feb 16 2005 - 18:08:08 GMT
Ron,
IMHO the "aether" is due for a comeback.
(ie with minimal tweaking, adjusted for relativity, it's not a bad metaphor
for that quantum soup, or chaotic void, whatever.)
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Winchester" <phaedruswolff@hotmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:16 AM
Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
> Ron shows his ignorance;
> "The nothingness that we don't understand was proven by Quantum Physics"
>
> Scott;
> While I think your use of the word "proven" is a gross overstatement, I
> think there is some relation with mystical talk on nothingness and quantum
> physics, but I'd like you to expand on how you see it.
>
> Hi Scott,
>
> The word 'Proven' is a gross overstatement, and should be excluded from
> philosophical language. :o)
>
> That was a slip on my part. I should never have said proven.
>
> As I see it, the nothingness of non-deity Zen is the same as the void,
> nothingness, or 'Quantum Soup.' It is all theory, and as like every theory
> we have had prior, such as Aether have been 'Reconsidered' (as opposed to
> disproven:)
>
> The only compliment of Quantum Physics to Nothingness of Zen is that both
> Quantum Physics and Zen have realized that they do not 'Know' what this
> nothingness consists of. Any knowledge we have is temporary. All we think
> we know is that everything came from this Nothingness for lack of a word
> because it cannot be described.
>
> Let's just say that Quantum Physics leads us to think a bit closer toward
> Eastern philosophy, or what can be termed as spirituality.
>
> On empirical and SOM, and the MOQ being stuck on SOM in its use of the
> word empirical, is that I see you accepting, or being confused that a
> Mystic Experience is something other than enlightenment as to how the
> world is, that does not come from some 'Out There' field or force.
>
> The difference between enlightenment and the Christian Mystical Experience
> is that you know prior to the experience what you are going to experience
> when you are looking for the Virgin Mary. An Enlightened Mystical
> Experience is something that comes to you from what I would call 'Within.'
>
> I have been warned about using the term intuition, but I am thinking we
> already have within us the knowledge, but just do not see it as we are
> preconditioned to a belief system that was built into us from childhood
> on. The mystical experience in Eastern spirituality comes from separating
> ourselves from our prejudices as to what we "Think we know.' Quantum
> Physics lend to this in the 'Knower and the Known' that you mentioned
> before are the same. Eastern spirituality does not tell us what to look
> for in a mystical experience. Quantum Soup is simply an extenstion to the
> idea that this nothingness can not be known; it has no characteristics
> that we can understand.
>
> ('Quantum Soup' is just slang thrown at the physicists for their lack of
> ability to accept something that cannot be proven)
>
> Thinking of Quantum Soup brings me to some thoughts about 'Emprical Data.'
> It seems to me that in most fields, the use of the term 'Empirical Data'
> is more of an insult thrown toward the Empiricists, or those who depend
> too much on what is considered emprical data.
>
> Ron
>
>>From: "Scott Roberts" <jse885@localnet.com>
>>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>>Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
>>Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:21:47 -0700
>>
>>Ron,
>>
>>Ron said: This is where I see the difficulty Scott is having with
>>empiricism.
>>
>>Scott:
>>You see wrong. Like DMB, you take what I say and then add humongous
>>assumptions to what I say and argue on the basis of those erroneous
>>assumptions. I then have to spend a ridiculous amount saying "that's not
>>what I said". Somehow, you have interpreted my objecting to Pirsig's
>>expansion of the word 'empiricism' to the belief that I think that
>>changing
>>the usage of all words is a bad thing. In my first post about this subject
>>I
>>explicitly denied that.
>>
>>You have some notion of what I think about mystical events, but I'm not
>>even
>>sure what it is. Do you think that I think that all mystical events are
>>equally valid or invalid? That a vision of the Virgin Mary should be
>>treated
>>the same as Zen satori? I do not.
>>
>>You seem to think that I am stuck in SOM prejudices. I think the MOQ is
>>stuck in SOM prejudices, for example, in calling itself "empirical". If we
>>are going to debate this you have got to resist your tendency to go off on
>>big rambles based on wrong assumptions about what I think. If you're not
>>sure what I think, then ask, and I will clarify as well as I can.
>>
>>Meanwhile, I am curious about this sentence:
>>
>>"The nothingness that we don't understand was proven by Quantum Physics"
>>
>>While I think your use of the word "proven" is a gross overstatement, I
>>think there is some relation with mystical talk on nothingness and quantum
>>physics, but I'd like you to expand on how you see it.
>>
>>- Scott
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
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