From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sat Apr 09 2005 - 02:00:39 BST
Sam and all:
Sam Norton said to dmb:
Let's run through the Orpheus bit rapidly: child of gods, gifted musically,
falls in love with Eurydice, she dies, he pursues her in the underworld, he
loses her again, he is torn apart by the ? bacchanalians? So: Orpheus goes
in to the underworld when he is still alive; he goes to achieve something
for himself; he doesn't achieve it; he *then* commits a form of suicide.
dmb replies:
Well, it might just strike you as some kind of trick if you've never heard
this one before, but the standard version of the myth comes down to us from
the Romans, not the Greeks, and it is a PARODY of the original. In the
original version he does not fail. I would also point out that his "musical"
gifts are actually spiritual gifts. Music is just a metaphor. The idea
behind his musical genius is that he knows the song of the universe, not
just that he's some kind of rock star. He sings of the geneology of the
Gods, the origins of the universe and stuff like that. And I can see how a
person might conclude the Orpheus journey into the underworld was a selfish
act, but again Eurydice is best understood as a metaphor rather than merely
a girlfriend or bride. In Ovid's parody, Orpheus is torn apart by followers
of Dionysus, jealous women who didn't like the idea of becoming vegetarians.
As Peter Kingsley tells it, however, the crime that got him killed was very
much like the one that Jesus was supposed to have died for. Orpheus had a
mystical experience and saw that Apollo, the sun god, was also the god of
the night. It was a kind of sedition too.
Sam continued:
With Jesus: child of God, gifted (religiously), teaches and heals various
people (not a single object of love), is executed by the state for sedition,
goes into the underworld, rises from the dead. So: Jesus goes into the
underworld when he is dead; he goes to achieve something for other people;
he achieves it; he then ascends into heaven.
dmb says:
Here I would point out that the parallels make a great deal more sense when
both myths are read as metaphors for the mystical experience we are each
supposed to have. The parallels really begin to break down when we compare a
mystical Orpheus to the theological Christ. I think we're looking at apples
and oranges when we get to the notion that Christ was saving the whole world
while Orphues just wanted his girl back. The parallels breakdown when we
compare Ovid's parody to church dogma. But its a different story when we
look at them both as myths. Myths are multivalent and never so clear cut,
but they are also more pure than the literature that follows.
Sam added parenthetically:
{I'm not trying to say there are no parallels, just that they're not a
strong as you suggest}
dmb says:
Right. And I'm not trying to say they are identical in every way. But I am
convinced that theses two myths, as well as many, many others, express a
perennial truth. I'm saying that this message has been expressed in so many
ways, in so many cultures, that one would be a fool not to take notice of
what that message is, or rather what those messages are.
Sam said:
With Phaedrus: not a child of God, gifted (intellectually), teaches students
(not a single person), is rejected by the authorities and given ECT, his
'personality' vanishes (into the underworld), he is then 'resurrected'. So:
Phaedrus goes into the underworld when he is dead; he discovers something
important and achieves it; and then returns to share it (and the end of ZMM
is an ascension of sorts - you can sort of tell these things).
dmb says:
On top of what I've already said, it seems to me that all three can be seen
as spiritual reformers. Each of them wanted to fix the problem. Each of them
of inspired to make these improvements by a spiritual experience. One could
say the same about the Buddha too. In that sense, they are all healers and
world redeemers.
Sam said:
In particular, I think that the crucifixion of Christ and the ECT on
Phaedrus resemble each other much more closely than either resembles Orpheus
being torn apart by the bachhanalians. With the first two you have the clash
between institutions of social authority and an individual conscience (you
could describe them both as a clash between the third and fourth level, if
you let go of 'intellect' as the description of the fourth level). Whereas
with Orpheus there is no social/individual clash, there is simply the
individual tragedy - which is, more or less, self-inflicted.
dmb says:
A self-inflicted personal tragedy? No, even in the parody Orpheus is ripped
apart for his attempts to reform Dionysian rituals. Even in the parody he is
attacked by the authoritiys, by those who are resistant to change and his
severed head continues to make prophecies despite the efforts to shut him
up. In the origianl Orpheus gets into trouble with the authorities for less
entertaining reasons, but it is still of case of one individual reformer
going up against the status quo. As I see it, all three share that in
common.
Thanks,
dmb
P.S. One more thing that occured to me about five minutes after I sent the
last one on this topic. Another thought-provoking similarity between Orpheus
and Christ has to do with language. Christ is said to be the word made flesh
and Orpheus is credited with inventing the alphabet. Again, if we take this
literally or if we compare a mythical truth to a theological truth we are
going to be comparing apples and oranges. As mythical statements they are
very much the same; both Orpheus and Christ represent the perfection or
culmination of language in some sense. I just thought that was curious.
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