From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Wed Apr 27 2005 - 21:30:45 BST
Hi MSH,
> On 26 Apr 2005 at 11:34, Platt Holden wrote:
>
> "Dharma is Quality itself, the principle of 'rightness' which gives
> structure and purpose to the evolution of all life and to the evolving
> understanding of the universe which life has created." (Lila, 30)
>
> msh says:
> I see no mention here of a supernatural designer and creator. Do
> you?
I see mentioned here "Quality" and "principle of rightness" and
"structure" and purpose" and "understanding" which are all properties of
consciousness. (Refer to Ham's latest post for further elucidation.)
> platt continues?
> Pirsig's conclusion fits nicely with the view of physicist Paul Davies
> regarding intelligent design::
>
> "The universe looks as if it is unfolding according to some plan or
> blueprint. The input is the cosmic initial conditions, and the output is
> organized complexity, or depth. The essential feature is that something of
> value emerges as the result of processing according to some ingenious pre-
> existing rules. The rules look as if they are the product of intelligent
> design. My own inclination is to suppose that qualities such as ingenuity,
> economy, beauty and so on have a genuine transcendent reality -- they are
> not merely the product of human experience -- and that these qualities are
> reflected in the structure of the natural world."
>
> msh says:
> I think Davies is well aware of the difference between the appearance of
> design, and the existence of a supernatural designer. What we perceive to
> be design may very well be us looking at the back of our own heads, as if
> we were to gaze long enough through a telescope powerful enough to
> circumnavigate the curvature of space. (Didn't RMP say something like this
> in ZMM?)
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be
a duck. If I see design, it's not far fetched to presume a designer.
> And isn't Davies the guy you were mocking a few posts ago, when I
> pointed out that he clearly believes that the Big Bang requires no
> supernatural explanation?
I wasn't mocking Davies. Someone challenged me to show a scientist who
claimed the universe emerged suddenly from nothing. I obliged him.
> platt:
> Principles, values, and plans all suggest that consciousness, not matter,
> is foundational, a concept science is forbidden to accept because of its
> blind faith in natural causes.
>
> msh says:
> Principles, values, plans, suggest no such thing. Some human beings
> see that they themselves have principles, values, plans, and
> consciousness, and therefore project these qualities onto the
> universe. For some, this is just more comforting than saying "I
> don't know." This is a very old story.
Pirsig says Quality = experience = values. Are you saying he is
"projecting" these properties of consciousness on the universe?
> And exactly how is science "forbidden" to accept or reject any idea?
> Michael Behe is a scientist, and his rendition of the design argument is a
> logical argument backed by scientific evidence. But because it has not
> held up to scientific investigation, it is making no headway in scientific
> circles. No one has forbidden science to consider it; and no one could
> even if they wanted to.
Scientific journals will not accept supernatural explanations for
anything. It's a wall science has put up. I'm surprised you think
otherwise.
> People with religious beliefs have a problem with science only when
> they claim their beliefs have a scientific basis. I've never been
> able to understand why it is they so desperately crave science's
> stamp of approval, since they have so little respect for the
> scientific method.
I agree. I often wonder why Pirsig presented his SODV paper to a bunch of
scientists unless he was hoping for their stamp of approval..
Best,
Platt
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