From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Tue May 03 2005 - 03:07:56 BST
Hi Sam,
On 2 May 2005 at 20:47, Sam Norton wrote:
msh:
> Subject change, since I think we might move this beyond the
> transubstantion debate....
sam:
Very happy to make it wider and let go of TS, but isn't this what we're
covering in the 'scientific beliefs and religious faith' thread?
msh:
Probably, but it's been awhile since I've seen anything there.
Besides, I think my subject line is cuter, don't you?
> 1) Ant offered the belief in transubstantion as evidence of a
> science/theism conflict.
>
> 2) Sam said TS implies no conflict, citing Aquinas' explanation of
> TS as making a distinction between substance and accidents, saying
> that the bread and wine change in substance, not accidents and, since
> science is able to mark changes in accidents, not substance, there is
> no conflict.
sam::
Between 1 and 2 there was quite a dialogue between Scott and Ant which
covered a lot of ground.
msh:
Yeah, Scott's already sent me a scolding post. Like, I'm supposed to
remember EVERYTHING?
> 3) Sam claimed, therefore, that no Catholics really believe they are
> eating flesh and drinking blood.
sam:
That's *roughly* the implication, but I don't think they were my words. But,
taken in a certain way, OK.
msh:
> 5) I claimed that this is not the impression I got as a young
> Catechism student. But maybe Sister Mary hadn't read Aquinas.
>
> 6) Ant said that maybe she had but was doing what the church seeks to
> do: indoctrinating members to adopt non-questioning, non-scientific,
> authoritarian explanations of what is and isn't true.
sam:
This is where I want to quote Ian about 99% propaganda. This just seems to
be passing on other people's opinions. No independent thought required, just
parrot the criticisms made by the governments of Protestant countries in the
sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. The whole question - as I see it - is
about what counts as 'questioning, scientific explanation', which I was
hoping Ian was going to comment on.
msh:
I think he said "99% twaddle," but he was referring to someone else.
I would have said 99% dogmatic bullshit, but I'm not as polite.
> 7) In a similar vein, very recently, DMB said that this is how
> theologians protect themselves from scientific criticism, claiming,
> basically, for example in this case (TS), there is a substantial
> change that is not measurable by science, but is nevertheless real.
sam:
Ditto my comments above. But also there wasn't much of a 'scientific'
problem when TS began. The 'evidence' is perceived through faith, however
you want to define 'nevertheless real'. Or is the argument that only what is
scientific is real? (does anyone who accepts the MoQ believe that?)
msh:
It depends on what you mean by science. My idea of science is that
proposed by RMP, who despite the noise from the ani-intellectuals on
this list, is neither anti-science nor anti-intellectual. A careful
reading of either ZMM or LILA shows that he has a great respect for
both. His comments re Henri Poincare, Einstein... and Dusenberry, for
example. IMO, Pirsig's intention is to EXPAND quotidian scientific
inquiry to include moral evaluations and relative "betterness",
right-wrong, good and bad. His claim is that the best scientists do
this already and always have; it's the only way real science can
proceed, since we cannot test every possible explanation of any one
phenomenon. The best scientists choose the best path of inquiry
based on their innate sense of Quality and, therefore, come with the
best explanations for the phenomena we experience.
However, even with this expanded understanding of science, I'd say
that "faith" cannot produce evidence of anything, other than of it's
own existence.
> msh now says:
> If David is correct, and I think he is, then it will be IMPOSSIBLE
> for any scientist to show a conflict between science and theology.
> This doesn't bother me much, because I've always claimed that science
> and theology are mutually exclusive areas of investigation, one with
> its roots in practical empiricism, the other stemming from
> assumptions based on faith.
>
> It seems to me that, at this point, the discussion would be over but,
> because, for whatever reason, most (all?) theologians are desirous
> of science's stamp of approval, they constantly offer challenges
> exactly like the challenge offered by Scott to begin this thread.
> And the circle goes round...
sam:
I think Feyarabend's missive was to the point.
msh:
I'll see if I can find it... but I thought we all agreed to keep
secondary informational scavenger hunts to a minimum.
> So, to me the interesting question has always been, why do
> theologians so often appear to seek the imprimatur of science?
sam:
Because they've absorbed the ideology of the age.
msh:
BUt why the absorption one way and not the other? Why wasn't
Oppenheimer running around trying to get Reinhold Niebuhr's approval?
> I'll appreciate any comments along these lines, but please bear in
> mind that I have little familiarity with modern theology.
> Nevertheless, you should be able to make valid ideas understandable,
> even to a theological dufus like me. Just as I can discuss any
> aspect of computer science in terms understandable to non CS
> Engineers.
sam:
See my other post, when it comes through.
msh:
Will do.
Best,
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
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