From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun May 15 2005 - 18:40:02 BST
Mark, Matt and all MOQers:
matt said to msh:
your second stage is to argue that a "fully realized human being" would find
personal liberty immediately accessible. My first softening up move will be
to point out that not everybody believes in Quality, as you say they do. To
say that they do is to make the same move the theist does when they say that
God exists whether particular people believe in Him or not.
msh replied:
Uh, no. I think Pirsig makes it pretty clear than everyone makes a
hundred quality decisions a day. This is why belief in Quality is
empirical and belief in God is not.
dmb says:
The same move as the theist? What kind of intellectual tone-deafness does it
take to produce that conclusion?! Pirsig builds the MOQ around the most
basic kind of experience, one we all know intimately every day; that some
things are better than others. Theism asserts the existence of a
supernatural being based on faith, not experience.
matt continued:
The only way to "believe in Quality" is to first have read Pirsig's books
(which not everyone has) and then to have been persuaded by them (which even
fewer people have been). To say otherwise is to make the same kind of
appearance/reality distinguishing move that Plato gave us, where
Quality/God/whatever is there whether we like it or not.
dmb says:
I'd be very interested to see if you'll take msh up on his offer "to go over
the parts of ZMM where (Mark) believe(s) this is made quite clear." He'd
"be happy to do that." I'll be holding my breath. A few words until then...
If we move beyond the basic experience of betterness and move onto the MOQ,
move on to Pirsig's brand of philosophical mysticism, then I agree with
Matt. The only proper way to become a subscriber is to read, understand and
be persuaded by the books that explain it. Duh! But this is not a matter of
faith and one could say the same thing about any point of view so
represented in books. So what? The point is that some perspectives are based
on experience, evidence and some kind of logic. Others are not. The failure
to distinguish between the two strikes me as some kind of philosophical
disability or impairment. And if this is, in effect, the assertion that no
one can make that distinction, then I would reject that assertion for being
unwise, nihilistic and paralyzing. Plus it DEFIES experience and common
sense.
msh said:
Matt, at this point I need to snip four or five or six long
paragraphs of philosophology. I enjoy reading these academic
diversions, but I personally am really far more interested in knowing
what we living beings are thinking, at our common end-point of
evolution. I think we should be able to explain our thoughts without
reference to others, unless we are asked for historical.academic
support for our opinions.
dmb says:
Yea, Matt. Don't you know that philosophological diversions make baby Jesus
cry? Why are you so mean to sweet little babies, you monster?
But seriously, it does tend to get a little thick with jargon and
name-dropping, all of which gives your posts a verneer of sophistication,
but after jumping through all those hoops you end up coming to the
conclusion that the MOQ is not different from theism. After all that fancy
footwork, you end up with a decidely unsophisticated conclusion, one that
reactionaries will just love. There is a certain consensus reality that we
all share as contemporary, educated Westerners which you seem to dismiss in
favor of whatever joe schmoe thinks. Sure, our reality depends on history
and context, but I'm saying that we share that history and cultural context
well enough to find such lines, to make such distinctions. We all speak
english and walk on two legs. And we don't need metaphysical absolutes or
Platonic forms to assert these things, you broken record of a philsopher,
you.
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