From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Mon May 16 2005 - 21:46:32 BST
Scott,
> MSH wrote:
> > I think Pirsig opened a can of worms when he left his Holy trinity of SOQ
> > and tried to make Quality the primary source. He never defends this
> > statement, he just sets Quality at the top and away we go. Now, I think
> > we can argue that he ASSUMES this to be true in order to get his metaphysics
> > off the ground. But, if Pirsig believes he is speaking literal truth in
> > this regard, then his belief is due to some mystical revelation and
> > would indeed be no different than St. Joan claiming God talks to her,
> > that is, it
> > may or may not be true, but the claim of revelation is not enough to
> > prove it. Not for me, anyway.
>
> Platt responded:
> No assumptions or revelations required. Pirsig lays down Quality as his
> first marker based on an axiomatic undeniability:
>
> "He had demonstrated that even though you can't define Quality you still
> must agree that it exists, since a world from which value is subtracted
> becomes unrecognizable." (Lila, 9)
>
> Scott:
>
> Mark is not denying Quality, nor do I. He is denying the notion that
> "Quality is the primary source" is empirical. So do I. Assumptions or
> revelations are required to move from "Quality exists" to "Everything is a
> consequence of Quality".
Are you also denying that everything is a consequence of experience, and
that value is primary experience? You see, it requires no assumptions or
revelations on my part to be "absolutely certain" that the quality of
sitting on a hot stove is low, and that this value is "more directly
sensed than any "self" or any "object" (or any thing) to which it might be
later assigned." (Lila, 5., parens added)
Seems to me self-evident that everything is a consequence of value-laden
primary experience, i.e. Quality. For example, your and Mark's denial
"that Quality is the primary source is empirical" is a notion that first
emerged as a negative response to that particular intellectual pattern,
followed by verbalizing your negativity. You made an initial intuitive
value judgment, then patterned it in language. To put it metaphorically,
you came across that "Quality is the Primary Source" painting in the
gallery of ideas, took a disliking to it, and later wrote of your
experience.
The MOQ starts where we all start, with human experience. Thus everything
is a consequence of it.
Best,
Platt
.
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