From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Wed Jun 22 2005 - 10:39:31 BST
Sorry Paul, right thread, wrong mail - it was inserted after the Matt
/ Bo exchange ...
Ian
On 6/22/05, Paul Turner <paul@turnerbc.co.uk> wrote:
> Ian,
>
> You posted this as a reply to my mail (although didn't address it to me) but
> I can't see any relevance in your "reply" to what I wrote. So I'll assume
> you replied to the wrong thing?
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
>
> --- -----Original Message-----
> --- From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk [mailto:owner-
> --- moq_discuss@venus.co.uk] On Behalf Of ian glendinning
> --- Sent: 22 June 2005 07:05
> --- To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> --- Subject: Re: MD Matt's Critique of the SOL.
> ---
> --- Matt / Bo / Scott, et al, two points ....
> ---
> --- (1) This is not a beauty contest - I'm not concerned with how original
> --- Pirsig is or isn't, I'm concerned with whether he spoke sense or not,
> --- when it comes to reality.
> ---
> --- (2) Interesting that whatever language we use or whatever angle we
> --- approach it - linguistic / epistemological or objective / ontological
> --- - all the issues still collide in "mind" ... dualist or not ... the
> --- subject's mind, or ... ? (Scott, you make a lot of points that ring
> --- true. The fact that Pirsig - and others - got us to focus on the
> --- triplet event of immediate experience, doesn't automagically remove
> --- this "quality" entity from the rest of the problem.)
> ---
> --- Ian
> ---
> --- On 6/21/05, Paul Turner <paul@turnerbc.co.uk> wrote:
> --- > Bo, Matt
> --- >
> --- >
> --- > --- Matt:
> --- > --- If I understand your reasoning about the SOL-MoQ, it looks
> --- something
> --- > --- like this: SOM used to be the truth of us. We used to exist
> --- in the
> --- > --- SOM-Reality. But the creation of the MoQ has made it possible
> --- to
> --- > --- move from one
> --- > --- reality, the SOM-Reality, to another, the Quality-Reality.
> --- When
> --- > --- making that
> --- > --- switch, from SOM-Reality to Quality-Reality, we are literally
> --- > --- entering a
> --- > --- new reality. That new reality is the SOL-MoQ. The SOL-MoQ is
> --- > --- simply
> --- > --- short-hand for all the machinations we make in our reality,
> --- the
> --- > --- Quality-Reality, and the SOL-MoQ is the correct
> --- > --- interpretation of our new reality.
> --- >
> --- > Bo replied:
> --- > --- I had to indent this because this is just spot on. I could not
> --- have
> --- > --- formulated it better myself (in my own language)
> --- >
> --- > And....
> --- >
> --- > --- We are at the end of our respective tethers now. These last
> --- > --- questions of yours are answered earlier. But again I must thank
> --- > --- you for your willingness to explore the SOL to its source, never
> --- > --- ever before have I seen it laid out so perfectly. What a relief!
> --- > --- And anyone who hasn't dropped his/her "common sense"
> --- > --- because Pirsig seemingly has rejected the SOL interpretation will
> --- > --- see that it is the MOQ.
> --- >
> --- > Paul: I don't wish to take anything away from Matt's perspicuous
> --- writing
> --- > here but the response from Bo is a good example of one of the big
> --- > frustrations I have with him. Please see the below, which I recently
> --- > resent:
> --- >
> --- > --------------------------------------------------------
> --- >
> --- > From: skutvik@online.no
> --- > Date: Sat Aug 30 2003 - 08:13:44 BST
> --- >
> --- > 28 Aug [Paul] wrote:
> --- >
> --- > > You refer to "inside the MOQ" and a "Quality Universe" as if it were
> --- > > somewhere other than where we already are, right here, right now,
> --- all
> --- > > around and inside. I think your "Metaphysics is Reality" belief is a
> --- > > major problem.
> --- >
> --- > [Bo:]
> --- > Yes, I do. Existence have this tendency to change in accordance with
> --- the
> --- > range of view. Remember the example of a bug inside the sock?
> --- > After it being turned inside out, reality changed from a smelly
> --- confined
> --- > world to one of enormous vistas. It was the same yet changed
> --- fundamentally.
> --- >
> --- > A more real example is the cosmology of the "ancient world" (Social
> --- > Reality) The "underworld" extended forever downwards and the sky
> --- forever
> --- > upwards, then came the Copernican Revolution (Intellectual
> --- > Reality) when these things were relativized; The same "here, right
> --- now, all
> --- > around and inside" yet changed fundamentally. If this important
> --- phenomenon
> --- > that Pirsig points to is a "problem" to you ...?
> --- >
> --- > > I think your logic goes:
> --- >
> --- > I printed this out and brought it with me on a walk to read it in
> --- portions.
> --- > Even one's own view looks a little unfamiliar seen through another
> --- person's
> --- > eyes ....
> --- >
> --- > > "If the MOQ includes "Dynamic Quality"
> --- > > and Dynamic Quality is outside of static intellectual patterns and
> --- the
> --- > > MOQ is reality itself then the MOQ is also outside of static
> --- > > intellectual patterns"
> --- >
> --- > ....but this is as close as it comes!!!
> --- >
> --- > > This also explains why you have come up with the SOLAQI argument.
> --- You
> --- > > extend the logic above in this way..
> --- >
> --- > Exactly!
> --- >
> --- > > "and because I can think about the MOQ (which is outside of static
> --- > > intellectual patterns) then static intellectual patterns cannot be
> --- > > synonymous with thoughts"
> --- >
> --- > Damn! This Is GOOD!
> --- >
> --- > > So to keep it all intact, you reduce mind to an era of "subject-
> --- object
> --- > > thinking" and create a fifth level
> --- >
> --- > Even if I have backed down on the 5th level to a rebel intellectual
> --- pattern,
> --- > this is exactly it.
> --- >
> --- > > or a "Quality Universe" in which
> --- > > the MOQ is not "merely a metaphysics" but has replaced SOM as
> --- "reality
> --- > > itself", just as you think the intellectual level once replaced the
> --- > > social level as "reality itself".
> --- >
> --- > GREAT!!!
> --- >
> --- > > What I think you fail to see is that the metaphysical term "Dynamic
> --- > > Quality" is a STATIC INTELLECTUAL REFERENCE to reality which is
> --- > > understood by direct everyday experience WITHOUT THOUGHTS OR WORDS.
> --- > > When you understand what it refers to you don't actually need the
> --- word
> --- > > anymore.
> --- >
> --- > Maybe I was dizzy from your perfect understanding of the SOLAQI, but
> --- when it
> --- > comes to this (critical) part ...hmmm. You see I'm not able to
> --- understand
> --- > that anyone can understand it as well as you do and NOT "love" it ;-)
> --- >
> --- > --------------------------------------------------------
> --- >
> --- > Now, isn't this almost exactly the same as the conversation Bo and
> --- Matt are
> --- > having? But it doesn't stop here, you can go back through the
> --- archives and
> --- > see the same thing occurring again and again -- i.e. Bo presents his
> --- ideas
> --- > in cryptic, often unfinished (i.e."........."), statements about the
> --- "true
> --- > MOQ" and his correspondent-of-the-day gradually pieces together an
> --- > understanding which is presented in a summation of "the SOL."
> --- Following its
> --- > approbation, this summation is then taken by Bo as an ipso facto
> --- acceptance
> --- > of the ideas!
> --- >
> --- > Nuts.
> --- >
> --- > Paul
> --- >
> --- >
> --- >
> --- >
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