From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Tue Jul 05 2005 - 16:18:19 BST
> [Arlo asked previously]
> > > Can you provide any historical example of a time when business, devoid
> > > of
> "centralized economic planning", created a more-free, higher Quality
> > > society for the majority of citizens? Would you say the late 1800's
> > > constitutes such a time?
>
> [Platt responded]
> > I would say the early 2000's constitutes such a time in the U.S. While
> > not
> devoid completely of centralized planning, U.S. business has created a >
> more-free, higher Quality society for the majority of citizens than, say,
> Cuba or North Korea. Agree?
>
> [Arlo responds]
> This is a very complicated reply. Let me try to tease it apart. I agree
> that residents of the U.S. enjoy a greater degree of freedom (more-free)
> than the residents of North Korea. However, the comparison in this case is
> invalid, as the residents of NK are not simply victims of a greater degree
> of "centralized economic planning". They are victims of a military
> dictatorship that controls access to information, manipulates education,
> and uses violence to assure obedience to very restrictive social behavior.
Platt responds:
Centralized economic planning by definition requires the use of state
police powers to enforce its edicts. There's nothing voluntary about
carrying out the plans. You obey the regulations issued by the central
planners or your suffer the consequences -- fines and/or jail. So I don't
think the comparison with communist countries is invalid.
> Again with Cuba, I'd agree that our citizens have greater access to
> material goods, and partake in a stronger economy. However, as with NK, the
> comparison is invalid. U.S. and global trade sanctions against Cuba have
> done untold damage to both her economic infrastructure and amount of
> consumer goods (both necessary and frivolous) available in her markets.
> Thus, we can't do outright damage to a small, island economy with
> politically-motivated trade barriers, and then claim that her failure is
> due to "centralized economic planning".
A typical "blame America" for all the world's ills. When Cuba sees the
light of Pirsig's supremacy of the intellectual order over the social
order by adopting democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of the press,
freedom of assembly, freedom of travel and free markets, her fortunes will
improve a thousand-fold without the need for central planning.
> A more valid example would be either comparing a time in the U.S. when
> "central economic planning" (CEP) was either devoid or very minimal (such
> as the late 1800s) to a time in our history with a greater amount of CEP,
> and show how the majority of citizens were better off in one than the
> other. And indicate what measures you are using to support such a claim.
Hardly a more valid comparison due to all the technological and societal
differences between then and now.
> Or, if you prefer to use the last few years as your exemplar (which is odd,
> I might add considering those blasted "liberals" have controlled everything
> from the media to education to government for the past 50 years or so), can
> you indicate which measures you'd use to show the majority of U.S. citizens
> are better off than the majority of citizens in Germany, Denmark, Sweden or
> Norway? Would you include percent living below poverty? Literacy rates?
> Average income? Average completion level of education? Access to education?
> Medical facilities? Crime? Taxation? Average vacation time? Which?
Here are the measures I would use, borrowed from Dinesh D'Souza's book,
"What So Great About America."
Standard of living for the ordinary guy
Respect for work and trade
Social equality
Active, long lifespan
Future open to the young
Equality of rights
Minimum of religious and ethnic conflict
Foreign policy devoted to liberation, not conquest
And most important of all, freedom from interference by government in the
lives of ordinary citizens, including Pirsig's intellect vs. society
freedoms listed above.
Platt
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