From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Feb 16 2003 - 01:02:58 GMT
DMB said:
The quote is about one of the central problems of SOM, namely its blindness
to the power and necessity of the social level. ...
Pirsig:
"What the Metaphysics of Quality indicates is that the twentieth-century
faith in man's basic goodness as spontaneous and natural is disastrously
naive. The ideal of a harmonious society in which everyone without coercion
cooperates happily with everyone else for the mutual good of all is a
devastating fiction."
Sam:
Can I ask what - in your view - constitutes the "necessity of the social
level"?
DMB says:
Aren't you interested in its power too? ;-) If memory serves, the quote
comes from a discussion of the social level's role in keeping biological
values under control. Its about crime and punishment. More specifically its
a criticism of the ideal of the Noble Savage, that "spontaneous and natural"
man, unoppressed and uncorrupted by society. To the contrary, Pirsig says
the law of the jungle is much more oppressive and that social values make us
free. There are many more choices even in a regimented civilization than
there are in the wilderness. Pirsig says cops and soldiers have always been
around to make sure we don't have to live in the wilderness. (I like the
ancient penalty of exile. If you can't be civilized, they put you back into
the jungle.)You get the idea. But this in only part of the necessity of the
social level. It shapes us in every way. Its what makes us human, more than
animals. Its what allows us to think and talk, gives us our desires and
conceptual categories, ideas of rights and wrong. Its most of what we are.
Its as necessary as the body.
Sam:
In particular, what social institutions, customs - rituals?? - etc
etc are needed in order to preserve or develop a functioning intellectual
level?
DMB says:
I think we have to work it from the top down because the social level
doesn't know about or care about intellectual values. The same way that
social level values control biology, the intellect is supposed to guide
society. Here, society is the middle term. Laws are laws, but this MOQ
distinction allows us to see two different kinds. The laws that prevent
murder, robbery and adultery are the proper domain of society. But laws that
try to control offensive or subversive ideas strike are out of bounds.
Instead we write laws to insure that we minimizes society's traditional
retraints on intellectual freedom. Thus the seperation of church and state,
the first amendment, the fifth amendment, etc. They don't burn people at the
stake anymore, but there are still restraints coming from the social level.
Its a force of nature, like the wind. If the social level is like a
superorganism, like a giant, we could say that he wants you to be "with the
program" and not off thinking about your own seperate goals. You could say
the giant get very angry at certain kinds of "independent" thinkers,
especially the ones that criticize the giant.
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sun Feb 16 2003 - 01:02:29 GMT