From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Fri Aug 05 2005 - 13:22:30 BST
Bo,
You said
"USA is solidly anchored in - what we in MOQ-speak call - intellectual
value. Social value's most prominent pattern - religion - is brought
under control and has become a personal "faith" not a political force.
thank God."
Would that that were remotely true.
Ian
On 8/5/05, skutvik@online.no <skutvik@online.no> wrote:
> Hi Arlo
>
> 3 Aug. you wrote:
>
> > [Bo]
> > > Religion (of the Semitic kind I must stress) is the chief social
> > > denominator (according to Pirsig) while USA or any other Western
> > > country is chiefly intellect-orientated. Again nothing to do with
> > > intelligence.
>
> > [Arlo]
> > The folks who call the US of A a "christian nation" may disagree with
> > you. So would the politicians and justicies who demand that the
> > Occidental "10 Commandments" undergird our judicial system and should
> > be represented at courthouses. And likely so would the people who cry
> > heresy whenever anyone challenges the "one nation under God"
> > catch-phrase.
>
> There are of course a lot of religious sects and "societies" in USA
> as there are in my country, that preaches the end of the world
> due to sex and drugs and general decline, but USA is solidly
> anchored in - what we in MOQ-speak call - intellectual value.
> Social value's most prominent pattern - religion - is brought under
> control and has become a personal "faith" not a political force
> ..thank God.
>
> > Even Platt has argued that Judeo-Christian "morals" be upheld by law
> > in this country... of course, to be fair, only a very selective few
> > (e.g., to ban gays from marrying, but not to feed the hungry or
> > shelter the homeless).
>
> Well, intellect is "out of society", thus even an intellect-dominated
> state will have laws that can be traced back to their social origin.
> To steal, murder and lie can never become a virtue in any
> context, while coveting another man's ox and wife obviously
> belongs to a certain age and condition. The point is that intellect's
> own morals have overlaid the social ones. Stealing is still illegal
> but no one is allowed to cut off hands etc. Regarding "gays" it
> was such a taboo in ancient times that "God" didn't even bother
> to ban it. ;-)
>
> > Let me ask you this, according to Pirsig, much (if not most) of our
> > "freedoms" come from Indian culture, not European culture. Would you
> > say then that someone who self-describes as a Sioux, or Lenape, would
> > also be "intellect-oriented"?
>
> I have never really understood the "Indian aspect" of the MOQ.
> The freedom of a nomadic culture has little to do with the
> intellectual patterns that Pirsig lists in LILA, so in my opinion the
> intellectual level weren't part of the Sioux make-up. An aside
> here. How can "freedom" have anything to do with intellect if it is
> "manipulation of symbols"? It all points to my defined as the
> subject/object distinction.
>
> > And, I'm also curious where you would place Japan and Mexico on your
> > scale. Do they align with what you call "the West"?
>
> Japan and the Far East (sorry Khoo I just mean in the same
> sense that I am from the Far North) is another story. As I
> understand LILA's Rt. section the Orientals has transcended SOM
> or intellect and reached some Quality-like "level" represented by
> Buddhism - the Zen kind preferably.
>
> Mexico? Hmm. Originally that region as Maya or Aztec were
> social focussed, all world were. Now as a modern secular state
> with religion harnessed it is definitely intellect-dominated ... but
> there are grades. If you now are to ask about Outer Mongolia ..;-)
>
> Bo
>
>
>
>
>
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