From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Sun Aug 07 2005 - 05:19:25 BST
Platt,
You said,
"Don't you believe in democracy when it comes to directing the
government as to who and how much to tax?"
I say "Yes, but ...
There are democracies and there are democracies. Not all democracies
are the same. Just having a democracy isn't the whole solution.
Pragmatic complications like game-theory and the "trajedy of the
commons" need to be taken into account. Distribution of power and
interests need mechanisms for checks and balances - so-called
"free-press" is a part of that, though it's not without interests
either, etc ...
Sometimes even in the best run democracy (or successful buisness even)
someone has to give an order, (we've had enough debates about freedom
fighters vs soldiers already) comrade or no, to get things to happen.
Take your medicine, it's good for you, and the rest of our precious
society. You probably can't beat a benevolent dictatorship, but they
don't come with guarantees, so game-theory says thanks but no thanks.
Life's just complicated enough, but it sure aint simple in the real world.
Ian
On 8/6/05, Platt Holden <pholden@sc.rr.com> wrote:
> Hi Arlo,
>
> > My point, which I'm sure was clear to everyone else, was that you
> > immediately debase to Fear-Marx-Gulag propaganda at the mention of morality
> > that values the individual over wealth. Certainly Marx would argue that
> > lives of individuals are more moral than wealth. But so would Jesus. So
> > does Pirsig. So did Ghandi. When one talks about community supported health
> > care, why don't you roll out "fear Jesus" propaganda?
>
> You seem to have the ideas that wealth belongs to society to be dispensed
> of by society in a way you and Marx see fit. (Jesus said take no thought
> for the morrow. Ghandi fought to be free of British government rule.) As
> for fear of communism, you better fear it. Or are you like Chomsky and
> Jane Fonda a cheerleader for Ho Chi Min?
>
> > [Arlo]
> > OK. I did. I can't find any post that explains why you roll out Marx-Gulag
> > fear propaganda when publically supported health care is mentioned, but
> > don't when publically supported education or state parks are. Could you
> > direct me to one?
>
> Sure. Don't you remember the problems with defining "life saving?"
>
> > What you've said is that if the majority voted for health care, you'd
> > support it. And that you feel it can/should be capable of being voted away.
> > Do you feel the same way about public education and state parks? Should a
> > community have the right to vote away public education? State Parks?
> > Libraries? Why is health-care different?
>
> Of course. Don't you believe in democracy when it comes to directing the
> government as to who and how much to tax?
>
> > Why should you, by vote, get to determine if public money is spent for John
> > Doe's dialysis, or that he is left to die?
>
> Because the public money, as you put it, is my money, your money, and my
> next door neighbor's money. Why should you or anybody else be permitted to
> dictate to us how to spend our money?
>
> > How would you feel about community-based repayment? That is, for people who
> > lack capital means, but are given life-saving treatment, to use the
> > "intellect" that society protected to repay society through such things as
> > delivering meals to shut in, teaching literacy, or to use particular skills
> > (such as an architect repaying society by designing a town hall, or
> > community center, which can then be built by labor that is also repaying
> > the community for health-services)?
>
> I've always been in favor of making welfare recipients work. But, soft-
> hearted liberals would have none of it.
>
> > [Arlo previously]
> > When did I say "no one is entitled to keep part of what s/he earns"?
> >
> > [Platt]
> > Just about every time you turn around and propose another government
> > program. :-)
> >
> > [Arlo]
> > Which means you advocating this too when you said you supported publically
> > -supported state parks... you evil Marxist, you.
>
> Which means I would vote to tax myself for that purpose. But it doesn't
> mean I would support a dictator who said "We will have public parks and
> that's an order, comrade."
>
> Platt
>
>
>
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