From: david buchanan (dmbuchanan@hotmail.com)
Date: Mon Aug 08 2005 - 03:26:57 BST
Sam and all:
Sam said to dmb:
I also think you're wrong about Christianity (as was Joseph Campbell), but
I've a feeling I've said that before.....
DMB replied:
I sincerely wish you would make a case,
Sam went on:
I have tried!
>Campbell is simply wrong, and anyone who thinks he's right shares his
>error. Far from being 'unthinkable and sheer heresy' the concept is
>"conceptually
>foundational in both the east and the west". It seems to me that there is
>a profound harmony between the different spiritual traditions on this
>point, with the possible exception of the Protestant strains - which is
>what people like you, Pirsig and Campbell take to be the sum total of
>Christianity. If I could get you to understand that Christianity isn't the
>same as Protestant Fundamentalism or Roman hierarchies we'd be a lot closer
>to understanding each other!
dmb says:
This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say I wish you'd make a case.
This is not a case. All you've offered here is the naked assertion that
you're right and that I, Campbell and Pirsig are wrong. Are you trying to
tell me that there are strains of Christianity, beyond that esoteric
mystical core, where Jesus Christ is NOT viewed as the one and only son of
God? Are you telling me that there are demoninations of Christianity that
foster the mystical experience and are perfectly OK with people who claim to
be one with the Father? If so, put them on the table. Show me. After all
these years you have failed to produce any such voices. All you ever do is
drop names and book titles of theologians and such. And now your supporting
material is the dictionary. That, my friend, does not make a case. You know
where I get the impression that mysticism is lacking in Christianity? From
former Christians who have become mystics, that's who. How about Alan
Watt's, the former Anglican priest who became a Buddhist? Campbell was
raised as a Catholic. These people are not complaining about the pope or
Jerry Falwell. So trying to distance yourself from fundamentalism and the
church's hierarchy just doesn't cut the mustard. In fact, most of the time I
am responding to you and your position specifically, not just Christianity
in General.
I know there a mystical message buried deep within Christianity. At the
bottom of things that's what it really all about. My problem is that an
overwhelming majority of Christians would totally freak out if they knew
about that. The more generous critics will point out that the church doesn't
explicitly prohibit such things, but will also point out that they certainly
don't encourage it or offer any help either. But there is one thing we agree
upon. Some branches are better than other and fundamentalism is just about
the worst kind of Christianity. Its barely even religion, its just fascism
with a religious accent.
If "blasphemy" is allowed, encouraged, nutured or taught within the
Christian tradition you know and love so well, then you should be able to
provide actual examples. As a priest, even if you don't like it, you are the
resident spokesman for theism. Make a case. Show me. Where is this
mysticism?
How is it expressed? How is it taught?
It seems to me that you have had several postions on this matter before your
present assertions. If memeory serves, you have said at various times that
A) There is no such thing as a mystical experience, B) There is such a thing
as a mystical experience, but it not important in the least, C) the mystical
experience is really just a romantic feeling and now D) the mystical
experience is a foundational concept in the church because the Greek word
"theosis" appears in our english dictonaries. ("Blasphemy" is also in the
dictionary.) What am I supposed to make of all this? Even if I were a far
more generous and patiet person, I'd still have to insist that your actual
postion lacks clarity and coherence.
But if you want to make a case, a real case and not just naked assertions
about how wrong and bigoted and ignorant everybody is, I promise to read it.
I'll read it twice, padre.
Hugs and kisses,
dmb
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