From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Mon Sep 19 2005 - 01:11:47 BST
Hi Ham,
Platt
> > I think what you see here is a prima facia case for the pervasiveness of
> > value reality. To participants, some threads have more value than others.
> > From birth to death, life is is just one choice after another, including
> > what we choose to pay attention to :-)
Ham
> What is the prima facie evidence that value is reality?
That life is just one choice after another, including what we choose to
pay attention to and what one decides is true.
> I once asked my old friend, the Professor (who resides in the western part
> of your fair state), what he thought the purpose of Philosophy was. His
> answer: "To tell us what is important in the real world."
>
> I saw this response as having two parts -- the first was a definition of
> (his) Value, the second defined (his) reality. What he was telling me is
> that Philosophy has personal value to him only insofar as it is useful in
> dealing with the empirical world. I know that's what he meant because when
> I explained my interpretation, he expressed his total agreement with it.
A fine example of value reality.
> Now, as you have elected to define Value before Reality, let's look at the
> "evidence" you have presented: 1) "Some threads have more value than
> others." 2) "Life is one choice after another, including what we choose to
> pay attention to?
>
> Isn't your "prima facie case" really based on the fact that "some things
> are more important (to you) than others"? Is there any significant
> difference? You like music and art -- they are important to you. You like
> to discuss philosophy with others -- that is important to you. Hence, what
> you "choose to pay attention to you" is important. If one thing is more
> important than another, it has more value to you.
Yes. Importance signifies value. So does choosing, thinking and observing.
> I'm not criticizing your motives or your reasoning. Actually, I think most
> of us would accept the "importance" concept of Value. All I'm saying is
> that this is a subjective judgment call that relates to the individual's
> proprietary world.
Judging also signifies value. Your concepts of subjectivity and individual
proprietary awareness are your judgments. Others may agree or disagree,
according to their own judgment. Values all.
> I'm trying to probe beyond egocentric satisfaction to build a case for
> Value in the metaphysical sense. If, as I believe, Value is not simply a
> metaphor for what's important, then it has to be established as a principle
> of Reality. To do that we need to postulate an ontology for Reality
> --explain what causes it, how it takes the shape and form of the cosmos,
> and what is man's role in it.
I agree. But, in my judgment, some of the "ontology of reality" will
forever remain a mystery.
> Incidentally, in the "most difficult" category I place the following:
>
> 1) The concept of proprietary awareness. (That, I admit, surprised me.)
>
> 2) The concept of a primary source. (Not so surprising, considering the
> MD's atheistic position.)
>
> I don't recall asking you, Platt: Where do you stand on the primary source
> issue? (Please try to avoid the words "quality" and "value" in your
> answer, if at all possible.)
You said it yourself above. Value is a principle of reality. To avoid
using the words value or quality as you request, in my judgment the
primary source is the principle of rightness. More than that I cannot say.
> And let me know if you see any real distinction between what you call
> "value" and what you consider "important".
No real distinction. In fact, in value reality, nothing can be really
distinct from the value scale of "of no importance" to "overriding
importance." As Pirsig says, "A thing that has no value does not exist."
(Lila, 8)
Always happy to respond to your questions, Ham. I wonder why you don't
answer mine?
Best,
Platt
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