From: David M (davidint@blueyonder.co.uk)
Date: Sat Oct 15 2005 - 20:22:42 BST
if nothingness can differentiate, what in heaven's
name is your essence for? you are the most confused
metaphysician I have come across. You don't seem to
see that theredoes not need to be a something behind
the source of creation. A simple but odd presupposition
that seems to blind you. And value is key, why else would the source bother
to create if the source did
not value what it created?
DM
----- Original Message -----
From: < >
To: < >
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: MD Looking for the Primary Difference
>
> Hi Reinier --
>
> You said:
>
>> Well, unfortunately, I do not share your view of nothingness
>> as creator of differentiation. I don't think differentiation
>> needs this. Nothingness for me merely represents the
>> hypothetical opponent of Essence. I say hypothetical,
>> because it cannot exist as opponent.
>> Even if it's a differentiator in existence, then it would be
>> part of essence, because everything in existence is part
>> of essence.
>
> Yes, everything we experience in existence is derived from Essence.
> Experience includes gaps or divisions in space/time which accounts for
> "difference" in the reality experienced. We type a "space" between two
> words to separate them; we draw a diameter through a circle to create two
> semicircles; we imagine a time interval between "then" and "now", and they
> become past and present for us. These boundaries are intellectual
> projections of the "nothingness" of our awareness which divides one thing
> or
> event from another.
>
> I'm really arguing here for a conclusion based on two propositions:
> 1) Nothingness is the primary differentiator.
> 2) Self-awareness is the nothingness of experience.
> Ergo: Experience is the self/other differentiator of existence.
>
> Now, existence (i.e., being-aware of otherness) presupposes a creator. If
> nothingness is the primary differentiator that accounts for difference, it
> must also differentiate reality; that is, the appearance of nothingness is
> what makes existence possible. As you stated, "nothingness represents
> the
> hypothetical opponent of Essence." This suggests that Essence "creates"
> existence by denying or negating what it is not -- nothingness.
>
> If you will indulge my hypothesis that absolute Essence is "negational",
> in
> the sense that it creates by negating, and that the only attribute not
> present in its "absolute potentiality" is nothingness, then the negation
> of
> nothingness is the Primary Difference that "actualizes" or causes the
> self/other division (existence).
>
>> Differentiation comes from valueing, is a valuistic concept.
>> But it's the valueing of the opposites that create
>> differentiation, and not the thin line of nothingness in between (if
>> there is any).
>
> I don't accept your premise. We do not separate the objects of experience
> by valuing them; the separation appears when we divide them by
> nothingness.
> The "space" that we intellectualize between any two objects IS "the thin
> line of nothingness", not value. Valuing comes later -- after we make
> this
> primary separation. If you could accept this concept, I think we might
> make
> some progress. Otherwise, you will have to demonstrate to me precisely
> how
> valuing effects a separation.
>
> [This comes from your second post]:
>
>> I do not reject a self/other duality. I acknowledge it.
>> But I do not think that this individual awareness, 'self',
>> is true Essence. As I replied to Dave in the 'consiousness'
>> thread, Essential awareness/consiousness is undifferentiated...
>
> I agree that 'self' (the individual awareness) does not possess Essence.
> (Actually, I think it is a nothingness.) I also agree that Essence is
> undifferentiated. However, I don't know what you mean by "Essential
> awareness/consciousness". Are you implying that Essence itself possesses
> consciousness? Or, are you saying that Essence encompasses the
> consciousness of humans?
>
>> So if you could then say that there must be an essential,
>> undifferentiated awareness or consciousness (or whatever
>> you may like to call it), then you could not separate it from
>> any non-awareness, existential thing or stuff.
>> Because in Essence there is nothing that is other.
>
> I have not made that assumption, but perhaps you have. If so, then you
> are
> trapped in your own paradox. Anything that is "other" is actualized as
> "existence", which is the "not-other" of Essence. Discrete conscious
> awareness is one of those things; it "exists" as a negate of Essence -- as
> a
> free agent that does not possess Essence. Self-awareness is a divided
> (conditional) entity -- essentially a nothingness that is the antithesis
> of
> Essence. That's how it can be "free". But its connection to Essence is
> through (conditional) Value. And that's a subject for another day.
>
> Ponder on my nothingness=differentiator concept, Reinier. I'm hoping that
> you will see your way to accepting it as the better alternative to value
> in
> this context.
>
> I always feel I'm making progress in these metaphysical discussions with
> you.
> Why is it that I'm unable to communicate these ideas with the MD people?
> Now, thanks to Rebecca, they're trying to add "rationality" to the list of
> human attributes -- "awareness", "experience", "intellect" -- that they
> want
> to dehumanize as a collective level! What in heaven's name do they have
> against the individual?
>
> Essentially yours,
> Ham
>
>
>
>
> MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
> Mail Archives:
> Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
> Nov '02 Onward -
> http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
> MD Queries -
>
> To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
> http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
>
>
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries -
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sun Oct 16 2005 - 06:46:31 BST