From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Sat Oct 22 2005 - 12:43:24 BST
[Arlo]
> You can keep repeating ad naseum all you want that following this
> peyote-driven experience he "thought about it" all you want. I've never
> denied he thought about it afterwards, and applied reason and critical
> thinking to develop the MOQ. But why do you pretend the germ-kernal is
> anything different than it was. Part of that "say it over and over again
> and it becomes true" kind of thinking?
You have repeated the same passage in this post twice, not to mention
several times in previous posts. Seems you are trying to push through your
idea by using the "over and over again" propaganda technique. But until
you can show me in the passage you quote anything about quality, morality
or value, your argument remains unconvincing. In fact, Pirsig tells us
exactly what his peyote illumination was: "Then the huge peyote
illumination came: They're the originators." He was referring to Indians
being the originators of the plain spoken American Western dialect.
[Arlo]
> I am not alone in my condemnation of the junk that is passed of as
> "Quality" in production and consumption. Pirsig was very vocal about it
> too, wrote ZMM primarily to deal with "why" that junk is there. All I'm
> saying is Pirsig's revelation (no means for Quality in the dialogue) is
> still the norm. You yourself agree to this every time you say the MOQ is
> not in universal acceptance.
>
> So, given that the MOQ is not in universal acceptance, what evidence do you
> have that since ZMM people are suddenly attunded to Quality (in production
> and consumption)? Was he wrong? Did some other illumination hit the
> population? The SOMist means of production and consumption in ZMM, how have
> they changed?
If you think Pirsig was out to change human nature, I think you're
mistaken.
> [Platt]
> As I've said, I see one man's junk as another's treasure. I don't think
> Pirsig's goal in life was to rid the marketplace of what he considered to
> be junk as if he was a Lord High Commissioner of quality products. In fact
> the admitted quality can't be defined. His goal was to offer a rational
> basis of morality whose highest value is freedom -- in the marketplace and
> elsewhere.
>
> [Arlo]
> Dang blasted Platt, methinks you are deliberately being obtuse to torment!
> I never said he, nor I, want to "rid the marketplace of junk" by any means
> other than getting Quality into the dialogue and letting the market respond
> naturally. His "goal" was not simply "freedom" in an "anything goes" sense,
> but "freedom" to move towards Quality, individually determined, but always
> with Quality foregrounded... errr... upfront in the dialogue. He certainly
> didn't want the "junk" of ZMM to keep on being made and consumed just
> because "people were free to do so". He wanted to expand their freedoms by
> giving them something "better" on which to base their decisions. Quality.
> Since the MOQ has not gained univeral acceptance, I don't think people are
> basing their decisions on this Quality, they have no dialogue for it, do
> you?
People are basing their decisions on what they consider to be Quality as
they have since the beginning of time. I fail to see the connection
between a metaphysics based on morality and whether I choose a Honda or a
Rolls Royce in the marketplace. Perhaps you can explain.
> As for your Walton hero, all he has done is gotten rich bringing the
> funeral procession off the Interstates and onto the back roads. Cheap
> products that provide slight monetary advantages to consumers, while taking
> all real capital out of local economies, replacing meaningful labor (in the
> Pirsigian sense) with unconnected, low-paying jobs with no real value to
> the people who work them. And no way out, without a dialogue capable of
> critically examining the system. Something "Quality" a la ZMM would
> certainly do.
Again, I don't think Pirsig wrote his books to interfere with people's
free choices in the free market. It wasn't his style to be like Richard
Rigel, "Full of great ways for others to improve without any expense to
themselves." (Lila, 7)
Platt
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