From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Thu Nov 24 2005 - 12:10:33 GMT
Mark,
Someone put me right on dictionary definitions of autonomous sometime ago.
I'm seeing it in the "self-governing" sense, so in terms of levels,
things in a given level governed by things emergent in that level, not
simply dependent causally on things in a lower level.
Given that, I tend to see each MoQ level as autonomous with respect to
lower levels anyway. So autonomy doesn't add much to defining any
given level, except in a general sense you suggest that is is "more"
autonomy towards the top.
What we're really stumbling over here is particular kinds of
intelligent, teleological governance, and our problems with defining
"intellect" in level 4 (symbolic manipulation being a part of it).
Your review of levels 3 & 4 above, shows that intelligence (of sorts)
is spread though the whole socio-intellectual layer.
In reality we have a million onion skins / shades of greay between
strings & quarks at the bottom of 1 and super-enlightened intellect at
the top of 4 (and it may even be recursive at that point), so the
layers are pragmatic about defining the words we use to distinguish
them for some useful (non-absolute) reason.
I have no trouble distinguishing 3&4 from 2, and 2 from 1, and 1 from nothing.
There is some level of reflective intelligence throughout 3&4, it's
just that the intellectual considerations get more sophisticated
towards the top, hence this perennial debate about what exactly we
think the definition of intellect is in the top layer. (ie why I agree
with Bo, and Sam, we have a problem here, even if I'm looking for a
more inclusive solution than Bo's SOMist intellect.)
Personally, I don't lose sleep over this and just accept we have many
subtle evolving aspects of "intelligence" throughout 3&4 and many
significant layers we could talk about within that. All I want is a
definition that has no ceiling, one that includes it's own evolution
beyond SOMist, pre-MoQ intellect.
Ian
On 11/24/05, mark maxwell <laughingpines@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Hello forum,
> The idea that the 4th level may be renamed the
> autonomous level has been put forward. It may have
> been Mike? I agree with the line of thought, no poblem
> there, but i'm not happy with the conclusion, as i'll
> explain.
>
> The thing is, it may be better to regard the 4th level
> as the 'More autonomous' level, which begs the
> question.
>
> Autonomy in the MOQ is freedom from sq.
> What is freedom from sq?
> DQ
> What makes the 4th level more free from sq?
> Intellectual values make the 4th level more free from
> sq.
> Why are intellectual values more free from sq?
> Intellectual patterns of sq can evolve into more
> Dynamic relationships than social patterns of sq.
> Why can Intellectual patterns of sq evolve more
> Dynamic relationships?
> Intellectual values are symbolic manipulations of a
> higher order of complexity/coherence than social
> linguistic symbolic manipulations (for example)
> Thus, the 4th level is more Dynamic than the social
> level.
> Therefore, the 4th level is more autonomous than the
> social level.
> However, the 3rd level less autonomous than the 4th
> level.
> The 3rd level is autonomous in that it is more free
> from sq than the 2nd level.
>
> I think the 4th level is appropriately termed the
> Intellectual level.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
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