From: Elizaphanian (elizaphanian@tiscali.co.uk)
Date: Tue Apr 15 2003 - 18:27:39 BST
Hi David,
Sam said:
> I (i) don't think it's
> possible to think without an underlying mythology (meta-narrative, final
> vocabulary, whatever) (ii) think that science operates within a mythology
> which is largely unacknowledged (iii) think that the Christian mythology,
> for all its faults, is superior to the scientific one (more precisely, it
is
> superior to Modernism). I think DMB would agree with me on (i), (ii) and
> part of (iii), but I'd be interested to know for sure. I'd also be
> interested to know what are the myths which he (and you) live by.
>
> DMB says:
> Hmmm. (i)I'm not so sure that meta-narratives and final vocabularies are
the
> same thing as mythology, but I'd certainly agree that its the social level
> that allows us to think. This makes sense because language, mythology,
> ritual and things like that are sort of like pre-requisites for thought.
I think that counts as agreement? (hope so)
> (ii) I don't think its helpful to say "science operates within a
mythology".
> The "myth" of independence that Pirsig talks about is a myth only in the
> conventional sense, meaning a commonly held misconception. Its true that
we
> all operate on the basis of mythology whether we acknowledge it or not,
but
> there is no reason to single out scientists or science. Since we can same
> the same thing about every person, putting this soley in their laps seems
> arbitrary. And if you are using "myth" to mean presumptions and
assumptions,
> the charge is still arbitrary.
I agree that we shouldn't single out science or scientists - but that is in
fact my point. I am objecting to the (Modernist/SOM) claim that science is
cognitively superior to mythology. That claim lacks self-awareness about the
mythology within which science itself is embedded. My view is that "science"
is transitive across different mythologies (assuming that science = level 4
and mythology = level 3). So I still think we agree on this.
(iii) I think its a huge mistake to treat
> science and Christianity and two rival mythologies. To then simply declare
> that one is superior without even hinting at why we should believe it,
well,
> that's just not an argument or a case or anything. I have to say it looks
> like pride is at work here, and that this is not an unbiased analysis.
I don't think I have been 'backward about coming forward' with various
arguments. Forgive me if I don't employ each of them in every post - perhaps
it is pride, but I would have expected you to remember what my approach is,
from one day to the next. I certainly have a good idea of where you're
coming from ;-)
>
> What are the myths by which we live? Myths that have been invented? Gents,
I
> think you both imply that we can exercise conscious control over myths,
but
> it just ain't so. They are generated in the unconscious very much like a
> dream and so one hardly has any choice about such things.
The only element of conscious choice you have is whether you 'interrogate'
your governing mythologies or not. I think freedom is a function of
self-awareness - the one is proportionate to the other.
> The best we can
> hope for is to have enough insight into our own inner lives and to
DISCOVER
> which myths animate our lives. As I understand it, these things shift over
> time. We worship different gods at different stages of our lives, so to
> speak. Or we may return to the same myths over and over, but each time the
> approach is at higher and deeper levels of meaning, like an upward spiral.
> We can get trapped in them too.
>
Yes, I agree with all of that.
> To answer more directly... I'm not sure, but I think Orpheus has a hold of
> me. Don't know what that means, exactly. I just know he rocks my world.
>
> Don't look back,
> dmb
Has Orpheus (or Orphic mythology) ever made you decide a matter in a certain
way? Has it, in other words, ever made a concrete difference to the way you
live? And - given your last words there - how do you interpret Orpheus
looking back?
Sam
The lover of myth is in a sense the lover of wisdom, for myth is composed of
wonders. Aristotle
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