Re: MD Metaphysics of Quality: An oxymoron?

From: Paul Turner (
Date: Tue Apr 22 2003 - 11:07:38 BST

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    Hi Wim

    You wrote 'Why couldn't mystical religion and art be a
    'natural' and sustained dynamic form of

    Perhaps an analogy might convey some of what I am
    struggling to express. Consider a forest of
    immeasurable size. Consider a wanderer in the forest
    characterising the human mind. Consider trails through
    this forest characterising the paths of thought that
    minds have made since the first thought. The average
    wanderer sticks mainly to the well worn trails, maybe
    once or twice daring to leave them but feeling
    decidedly uncomfortable enough to quickly find the
    nearest one again.

    The mystic stops following trails for a while and
    climbs to the top of a tree where he looks upon the
    forest as a whole and the sky above and sees the
    beauty which so many never see. He may realise that
    there actually isnít a forest at all. He then climbs
    back down into the forest.

    The artist walks blindfolded for a while and draws a
    picture of where he ends up.

    Now, what of the wanderer who, with eyes wide open,
    simply finds a way through the forest step by step,
    sometimes using trails but without the need to stay on
    them longer than necessary? His path may turn out to
    be the best yet, but leaves no trail clear enough that
    it could be followed.

    Iím probably doing unintentional but great injustice
    to the mystic and the artist but please accept this as
    a quick analogy to try and convey how I feel that a
    mind need not 'follow' trails of thought and without
    necessarily experiencing visions or producing

    I'm characterising mystical religion as an effort to
    achieve an exceptional experience and art as an effort
    to produce an artefact of one kind or another. I
    suspect this may not be what you mean? I was
    considering 'dynamic intelligence' as a general
    approach to life. So, mysticism or art as an approach
    to life? If that's possible I can go along with that.
    Also, is mysticism religious by definition?

    You wrote 'For me it is a wrong choice of words to
    suggest that a mind can or cannot cling to patterns of

    I acknowledge that patterns of thought are created by
    the activity of the mind, much like trails are left
    when we walk through the woods enough times, but need
    we always stick to the trails?.

    It is the tendency of the mind to store the patterns
    and furthermore apply them to inappropriate purposes
    that I am questioning. E.g. trying to use the patterns
    of mathematics to understand the creation of the
    universe or seeing that as an apple falls to earth, so
    everything falls to something (extreme examples, I
    know!, there are more subtle examples).

    You wrote 'Without patterns of thought (or emotion or
    intuÔtion or perception), without intellectual
    patterns of value it is impossible to identify a

    I don't see mind as only identifiable as intellectual
    patterns of value. To me intellectual POV are one
    aspect of mind.

    You wrote 'Intellectual value creates both the subject
    (a mind) and objects (thoughts etc.).'

    Agreed, SOM patterns of intellect turn everything into
    subjects and objects, useful but ultimately flawed in
    general circumstances, fundamentally damaging when
    trying to consider the mind or the nature of reality.
    I am speculating that the intellectual level has
    overstretched when it produces a metaphysics, and no
    metaphysical system that it produces can allow the
    mind to flow in accordance with the flow of Quality. I
    am making an implicit assumption that the mind can
    flow in accordance with the flow of Quality.



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