From: Elizaphanian (elizaphanian@tiscali.co.uk)
Date: Thu May 15 2003 - 11:52:46 BST
Hi Platt,
You've got me slightly wrong on this one. You summarised my view as:
: An interesting split or division where the I or Self as a level 4 static
: pattern plays an intermediary role between the undifferentiated aesthetic
: continuum and reality. I really can't quarrel with it too much for the
: following reason.
I see the intermediate role being the 'experience' words etc, which describe the interaction between
the level 4 static pattern and the undifferentiated etc, not that the static pattern is the
intermediary between 'experience' and the undifferentiated etc.
: One problem in discussing this is simply our need to use words to
: discuss it, and words are definitely from the intellectual pattern's "point
: of view," a step down and after unfettered, primary, undifferentiated
: Quality. No doubt the I or Self is 4th pattern dominated. But I would
: argue that the I or Self has conscious capacities above the 4th level,
: else we could not identify the 4th level as such. As I've said before, we
: can't get outside ourselves to describe our wordless, primary experience
: because we are that experience itself. As written in the Brihadaranyaka
: Upanishad:
:
: "Thou couldst not see the seer of sight, thou couldst not hear the hearer
: of hearing, nor perceive the perceiver of perception, nor know the knower
: of knowledge."
:
: That's why I think I or Self is synonymous with the other words. In
: contrast, your view seems to be that Quality is a phenomenon separate
: from anything or anyone experiencing it--an independent entity that
: exists whether observed or not, and certainly independent of any Self..
I would want to make some distinctions here. You're right that my view is that Quality is a
phenomenon separate from anything (conscious) experiencing it. So contra Berkeley I think that a
tree falls in the forest even if nobody observes it. In addition, I agree that there is something
'beyond' the fourth level patterns that the static self can become aware of. (I'm not sure that it's
possible to discriminate between whether that is DQ or a new level though.) I also agree that the
self is 'synonymous with the other words', or, put slightly differently, I would say that the self
is constructed from narrative and language; beyond that, I would say that the fourth level self (in
contrast, perhaps to a level 3 self) is 'open-ended', ie open to DQ - and this is what makes the
difference.
: But, that said, I speak, as is necessary to speak at all, from the
: intellectual pattern viewpoint. That we cannot escape (except through
: art). We split pure, primary, undifferentiated experience to make
: meaning and to communicate, values necessary for our survival. While
: Steve finds the inner/outer split of value to interpret the MoQ, and I
: prefer the primary/secondary split, you like to knife the phenomenon to
: which we all point another way. I guess it's like a deck of cards. No
: matter how you cut it, it's the same deck. The great thing about the
: MoQ is that it gives us a entirely different set of cards to play with,
: shunting aside to the back room all those old philosophical card games
: and in so doing giving apoplexy to many academic philosophologists.
Deck of cards or paintings in the art gallery? In any case, I agree that the MoQ is fertile for new
ways of looking at old subjects.
Cheers
Sam
"Great though books may be, friends though they may be to us, they are no substitute for persons,
they are only means of contact with great persons, with men who had more than their own share of
humanity, men who were persons for the whole world and not for themselves alone." (Thomas Merton)
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