From: johnny moral (johnnymoral@hotmail.com)
Date: Thu Jun 05 2003 - 18:29:54 BST
Hi Steve,
>If you can't resist thinking about it in SOM terms, I still think it makes
>sense to say that the MOQ affirms free will since it says that Quality is
>that which everything responds to. We do what we value. To further say
>that we do not have a choice in what we value is irrelevant to free will,
>unless you define free will in some kooky way like the capacity not to
>prefer what we prefer. That sounds like nonsense to me. To desire free
>will as we all do would then be to prefer to be able to not prefer what we
>prefer. Kooky.
Free Will has to be thought of in SOM terms, the Free Will belongs to a
subject. There is no Free Will in strict MoQ terms, there's no individual
will at all - that's an object belonging to a subject.
We indeed do what we value. And it is indeed very kooky to think that we
can choose to not prefer what we prefer, but that's what people want to
believe when they cling to the idea of free will.
I disgree vehemently that it is irrellevant to say that we do not have a
choice about what we value. We wouldn't put up with a secret government
program that told us what to value, would we? We wouldn't say it doesn't
matter how our preferences were formed as long as they are our preferences,
if they were being manipulated for the service of special interests. Well,
that is exactly what is happening, our preferences are manipulated, maybe
not by a secret organization, but by the Giant, by higher level patterns of
economy and technology and science that change our behavior for their own
benefit, much like an organism manipulates the behavior of inorganic
molecules, or a novel manipulates the behavior of the circuits on a
computer. I don't believe that we have to surrender our freedom to the
service of higher level patterns that attempt to manipulate us. It is an
intellectual idea: We should be free biological creatures that interact
socially, that the Giant is served by turning us into individuals and
replacing our social customs with a preference for technology and
materialism.
Johnny
>From: Steve Peterson <peterson.steve@verizon.net>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>Subject: Re: MD Free Will
>Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 18:28:47 -0400
>
>Hi all,
>
>Free Will seems to be one of those SOM Platypi--the sort of issue that gets
>resolved in the MOQ.
>
>The issue is whether the cause of human behavior lies in the human subject
>or in external objective reality. But if subjects and objects are
>deductions from Quality, then neither free will of the subject nor
>determinism by objective reality represents the cause of human behavior.
>
>It seems that the question, "do we have free will" needs to be unasked
>within the MOQ context. Or at least reworked.
>
>In the MOQ, a sense of free will is an intellectual pattern of value. It
>can be recognized whenever we think, "I did it because..." a phrase which
>is
>the basis of all intellectual patterns of value since they are latched as
>copied rationales (If you agree with Wim as I do). Only humans have free
>will since only humans participate in intellectual patterns. In other
>words, in the MOQ intellect and free will refer to the same human
>capacity--
>that of applying a rationale to motivate action.
>
>If you can't resist thinking about it in SOM terms, I still think it makes
>sense to say that the MOQ affirms free will since it says that Quality is
>that which everything responds to. We do what we value. To further say
>that we do not have a choice in what we value is irrelevant to free will,
>unless you define free will in some kooky way like the capacity not to
>prefer what we prefer. That sounds like nonsense to me. To desire free
>will as we all do would then be to prefer to be able to not prefer what we
>prefer. Kooky.
>
>Thanks,
>Steve
>
>
>
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