From: skutvik@online.no
Date: Tue Jul 08 2003 - 08:36:49 BST
PART 2
Paul ctd:
> But the metaphysics looks a bit unbalanced now. What
> about biology? Let’s have viruses, plants and animals,
> all different KINDS of life, each better than the
> next. Three more levels.
As said irrelevant.
> That just leaves the inorganic level, say quantum,
> atomic and chemical?
Ditto
> We now have a twelve level metaphysics, why stop
> there? Each of our levels can be broken down into
> further levels of evolution. Let’s see how complex
> this can go!
Ditto.
> Do you see what has happened? The MOQ takes EVERYTHING
> and puts it into 4 static levels of value and leaves
> out the undefined part, Dynamic Quality. Radically
> different kinds of value within the levels can exist
> without needing their own level.
From my qualifications up above the SOL doesn't change an iota of this.
> All inorganic nature can exist in one level, all life
> can exist in one level, all societies can exist in one
> level, and all thinking can exist in one level. The
> undifferentiated experience from which all of this
> emerges is not defined by levels at all.
Re. "all thinking can exist in one level". There is this tendency to mix intellect
and INTELLIGENCE which is of course what is meant with thinking "without
involving the subject-object relationship".
> SOM is ONE KIND of thinking which emerged as a
> response to Dynamic Quality, it usefully identified
> that there are patterns of value that can be
> considered objective, and there are patterns of value
> that can be considered subjective. The MOQ calls all
> of this "static reality", SOM incorrectly thought that
> this is ALL THERE IS, it ignored the Dynamic Quality
> which is the only “place” that unites the subjective
> and objective parts of experience and it forgot about
> and denied the primary empirical reality of value
> which created the distinctions in the first place and
> so it drowned in an ocean of paradoxes. Where is
> reality? Is it in the mind? Is it in matter? Is it a
> bit of both? Where, where, where? This or that? This
> or that?
This is all good. A bit irrelevant (of me) but as SOM emerged as a response
to DQ and that that no-one can find what Intellect was before the SOM
(except reverting to the definition of INTELLIGENCE) and Pirsig himself (in
LILA p.261) says that Intellect emerged after Homer .ie with the Greeks, Q-
intellect is the S/O divide (the 'M' taken over by the MOQ.
> Many have now realised that there is a BETTER way to
> understand and explain experience, and it is similar
> to the way the oriental cultures have always
> understood it, Pirsig calls it the Metaphysics of
> Quality. It is a GOOD idea. It is not better than
> intellect; it is intellect, a very good pattern of
> intellect, better than SOM but still intellect.
YES!! about the oriental cultures. I tried to say so to Squonk but am a racist
according to him. About the MOQ (or "Q-idea") It surely is in the thought-
intellect because in most participants' view thinking is= DQ and thus
contains everything (why I offend Squonk so intensely). But intellect is a
STATIC level, something that DQ tries to escape and why the Q.idea don't
"feel at home" in Intellect.
> The MOQ says that “you” can experience that which is
> better than intellect, but you can’t tell anybody
> about it in precise terms, not in a new level – the
> best description is an Indian one:
The Q-idea is at the present a rebellion inside intellect and no new STATIC
level.
> Food for thought?
Plenty. It's great to have a critic with such a grasp of what it's about. Hope
this triggers some new response at your end. I admit that intellect is thinking
in the sense of creating a thinking realm different from an objective one. This
is hardly great news, but might be a bridge between the two camps. What
do you think?
Everything in my opinion.
Bo
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