From: Valence (valence10@hotmail.com)
Date: Fri Jul 11 2003 - 17:28:31 BST
Hey Jon, Platt, Bo, and all
> JONATHAN
> > Bo, the reason we seem to be in agreement lately is that we both have a
> > problem with how Pirsig presents the Intellectual level in Lila. Let me
try
> > and explain how I see the problem.
> >
> > Pirsig's MoQ devides up reality into patterns at different levels.Atoms
are
> > Inorganic patterns, lifeforms are Biological patterns, etc. That is all
> > very well, but as soon as we start STUDYING those patterns, we are
engaged
> > in an inttelectual activity. Quantum THEORY, bioLOGY, socioLOGY are all
> > intellectual patterns.
P
> Intellectual activity begins with creation of the patterns themselves, not
> just when they are studied. Pirsig's dividing up reality into patterns of
> value was an intellectual activity.
R
Right on Platt, I agree with you, and I would offer the following quote to
back that idea....
PIRSIG (letter to A. McWatt)
> "In the MOQ, experience is pure Quality which gives rise to the creation
> of intellectual patterns which in turn produce a division between
> subjects and objects. Among these patterns is the intellectual pattern
> that says 'there is an external world of things out there which are
> independent of intellectual patterns'. That is one of the highest
> quality intellectual patterns there is. And in this highest quality
> intellectual pattern, external objects appear historically before
> intellectual patterns... But this highest quality intellectual pattern
> itself comes before the external world, not after, as is commonly
> presumed by the materialist."
R
Quality is the "pre-intellectual" reality. All four levels exist
"post-intellectually". But note that in this sense, "intellectual" is NOT
the same as the level of the MoQ called "intellectual" (which, to Pirsig, is
a further subdivision of the category called 'subjects'). This
pre/post-intellectual divide sits prior to all of the levels.
J
> > My own preferred solution to this problem is to put intellect back
where it
> > belongs, i.e. AT EVERY LEVEL. Without Intellect, there are no levels.
The
> > inorgnic level includes both "physical matter" and what we think and
feel
> > about it, and the same goes for the biological levels. Surely, that is
the
> > heart of the quality idea as expounded in ZAMM. That very beuatiful idea
> > was destroyed when Pirsig gave intellect its own level.
P
> I'm shocked, shocked. Are you saying atoms and cockroaches do not exist
> without our thinking and feeling about them? That there is no reality
> independent of human observers? That evolutionary processes occur only in
> the mind? Surely every bone in your scientific body rebels against such a
> notion.
R
Counter-intuitive? To say the least. But, isn't that exactly what Pirsig
is saying in the quote above? Isn't he saying that the notion of a reality
independent of human observers (ie. external objects) that appears
chronologically prior to intellectualization is really only a high quality
intellectual pattern?
take care
rick
I'm not crazy about reality, but it's still the only place to get a decent
meal. - Groucho Marx
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