From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Jul 13 2003 - 02:00:22 BST
Bo and all MOQists:
I'm writing a movie about a hero who wins the girl and gets his own talk
show... :-)
From the end of chapter 20:
"Phaedrus remembered now that it had bothered him a little that in
the Odyssey, Homer seemed at times to be equating quality with
celebrity . Perhaps in Homer's time, when evolution had not yet
transcended the social level into the intellectual, the two were
the same.
BO said:
..................................... Homer was Greek and experts
believe him to have lived a thousand years BC and Pirsig says that
evolution had NOT YET ...etc Celebrity - a social value - was
regarded as the highest good. Another few centuries and the
transition took place.
dmb adds:
I'm with you on the timing. I think its clear that a profound evolutionary
leap in human consciousness was taking place in the days of Socrates and
Buddha. Homer was already as old to them as Shakespere is to us. The
Babylonian and Egyptian cultures were already ancient, as old to them as
they are to us. Born as the offspring of all that magnificent achievement,
something new came into the world.
BO said:
Pirsig says that quality and celebrity WAS equal in the age when
Society was "the leading edge" of existence.(he only mentions
"celebrity", there were other). In the more remote past when Biology
was top notch IT was reality itself. Right now Intellect is at the front
and its value is perceived as Reality (regardless of how we define its
value).
dmb says:
I wouldn't go quite so far as to say they were equal, but almost. How does
Pirsig put it? "Celebrity is to social patterns as sex is to biological
patterns." "But in a value-structured universe celebrity comes roaring to
the front of reality as a huge fundamental parameter. It becomes an
organizing force of the whole social level of evolution. Without this
celbrity force, advanced complex human societies might be impossible. Even
simple ones."
That is also from the end of chapter 20. Interestingly, I think, the passage
immediately following the quote that started it all goes....
"The pyramids were celebrity devices. All the statues, the palaces, the
robes, and jewels of social authority: those are just celebrity devices. The
feathers of Indian headdress. Children being told they would be struck blind
if they ever accidentally looked at the emperor. All the Sirs and Lords and
Reverends and Doctors of European address, those are celebrity symbols. All
the badges and trophies, all the blue ribbons, all the promotions up the
business ladder, all the elections to "high office", all the compliments and
flattery of tea parties and cocktail parties are celebrity enhancements. All
the feuding and battling for prestige among academics and scientists. All
the offense at "insults". All the "face" of the Orient. Celebrity.
Celebrity. Even a policeman's uniform is a kind of celebrity device. ...High
school. High school was REALLY a place for celbrity. That's what had all
those Jocks out playing football every afternoon. That's what the pom-pom
girls were all about. It was celebrity."
Its worth pointing out that Pirsig is a celebrity himself, and is in New
York, a celebrity of a city, to talk with celebrity Robert Redford about a
movie deal. As if to drive the point home, they meet at hotel located in the
part of New York where lots of famous people live and takes a room high up
close to the top. Our society is still organized by the celebrity factor,
just not exclusively any longer.
Tanks.
dmb
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