From: skutvik@online.no
Date: Sat Aug 02 2003 - 19:56:59 BST
Khoo and All.
On 28 July you wrote:
> The individual is indeed subjugated to society. To paraphase Spock: "
> the needs of the many outweigh the needs of one." But not the
> "breaking of will" as communist and fascist regimes would have their
> respective populations. The individual submits willingly in the
> context of their Asian cosmologies to the larger good and the greater
> harmony. It would be a misconception to regard that Taoism restores
> individuality when it actually teaches that none exists.
Highly interesting. Regarding the ill effects I was merely referring to
Alan Watts. On page 162 of my Pelican edition of his "The Way of
Zen" he says:
* One must not forget the social context of Zen. It is primarily a way
of liberation for those who have mastered the discipline of social
convention - of the conditioning of the individual by the group. Zen
is a medicine for the ill effects of this conditioning, for the mental
paralysis and anxiety which comes from excessive self-
consciousness. It must be seen against the background of
societies regulated by the principles of confucianism with their
heavy stress on propriety and punctilious ritual. In Japan, too, it
must be seen in relation to the rigid schooling required in the
training of the Samurai caste ....etc.
The book was published in 1957 and maybe the said societies have
changed a lot since the, I have read that the one-child policy of China
has made that single one just as spoilt as the Western kind ;-)
But principally, do we submit our will all that willingly and harmlessly?
The group - society - necessarily demands a change from egoism to
altruism and isn't it this inevitable "damage" what the Western
psychologists (Spock for instance) have been prescribing "free child
upbringing" (the oxymoron of the century) to remedy? To no avail of
course, only giving us a generation of indulgent - now - adult "brats".
Perhaps I made the Eastern upbringing sound like a concentration
camp but that was not the intention, still there is a necessary element
of coercion in.
Lower down Watts says something that is the opposite of this from
you:
> It would be a misconception to regard that Taoism restores
> individuality when it actually teaches that none exists.
* (p. 163)
* Social conditioning fosters the identification of the mind with a
fixed idea of itself as means of self-control, and as a result man
thinks of himself as 'I' - the ego. Thereupon the mental centre og
gravity shifts from the spontaneous of original mind to the ego
image ...etc.
It too long to cite, but the gist of it is that Zen restores spontaneity and
removes the ego-focus (individuality). I can't really judge this, but I
have always liked this presentation of the Confucius/Zen relationship
> At which point did the Western and Eastern traditions diverge ? The
> Subject Object Metaphysics from Greece gave rise to the "structured"
> nature of Western religion: Christainity, Judaism, and I would include
> here, Islam as well which make up the Abrahamic faiths, from
> Testaments 1, 2 & 3 respectively.
This is what I have been saying all the time!
> Subject object logic has been also
> thoroughly treated in both Hindu and Buddhist metaphysics( the
> Abhidhamma) pre-dating the Greeks but was never emphasised, all for
> good reason, including the understanding that it would not be
> "salvific" (thanks, Scott) if pursued. The Hindu/Buddhist cosmology
> extended into China as well and permeated Asian civilisation to such
> an extent that it was not possible for a Indian or Chinese "Plato" or
> "Aristotle" to position a structured subject-object metaphysics as the
> primary philosophy for the East.
This sounds just right too, but what is "salvific"? Anything to do with
salvation?
> The Eastern religions are all "unstructured" in that they focus on
> practice and experience rather than the authority of the Word.
> Confucianism is not a religion but can be equated as a ruler's manual
> for the imposition and maintenance of social order; and is structured
> only in this sense.
Exactly!
> Islam has an "unstructured" Sufi tradition that
> has been suppressed. In being unstructured and undefined; as compared
> to the rigidity of subject object metaphysics, the Eastern tradition
> has avoided the dogma that has been the bane of Western society.
Right!
> Yet these countries (Myanmar, Tibet, Sri Lanka) have the richest
> Buddhist traditions and are at the cutting edge of the wisdom wave.
> The reverse may yet be true : that overt and ostentatious materialism
> would hinder these countries in their path to spiritual wealth.
Big issue. To tell a little about my own experience. This country was
rather poor up to the fifties-sixties and traditional Lutheran Christianity
had a strong position. It was however not exactly the "cutting edge of
wisdom", rather the opposite so if it was wealth or simply a revolt
against its oppressive nature I don't know, but now we are rather
secular to say the least. Yet, the search for ...something - for the
MEANING has not disappeared in spite of wealth and materialism.
Taking me as an example I was a rebel when young refusing to attend
the Sunday Mass and other religious ceremonies etc. yet when a little
older started my own search until I found the Quality Idea.
> Do
> these countries need the MOQ to make the balance for them? What
> would you include as of MOQ value to be included in the measurement of
> a country's wealth ?
Big question. I hinted to the the MOQ as something that could make
the Eastern (Buddhist) countries able to combine wisdom and wealth.
For the West it would mean introducing wisdom into their senseless
consumption.
> Truth be told, I stayed away from discussions then because I was
> doubtful I could contribute much to the discussions on the
> intellectual level. Two things stand out: there has been a lot of
> argumentation and there has been a lot of individualism in the
> discussion forum. And I am good at neither. Both have stemmed from the
> Western dialectical tradition of the individual defending and winning
> his position.
You are not to answer for a whole hemisphere, but there is great
computer density of and internet use in the region - Japan for example
- why is it that so few from that country participate in this (kind of)
discussion?
> Pirsig's MOQ is seductive because it represents the
> "Holy Grail" of western philosophy; the representation of reality
> beyond the subject object metaphysics.
That's what we need!
> Unfortunately, apart from the
> metaphors he provides, there is no guide book to get there. Its every
> metaphysician for himself or herself.
The struggle to escape SOM must necessarily start from SOM's
premises, but the result both the East and the West may benefit from.
Sincerely
Bo
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