From: August West (augustwestd@yahoo.com)
Date: Thu Aug 28 2003 - 21:55:59 BST
SQUONKSTAIL,
You say:
sq: Humans exist in social groups. My intellectual
patterns are the result of many value choices made
throughout human history. I can be intelligent and
creative without subjects and objects.
I don't understand this.
How can you think of something without a
subject/object correlation? As soon as there is
something there is quality, and either subjects or
objects or both, as something implies a subject and
and object. I think this is my biggest "beef" with
Pirsig. SOM is intertwinded with quality.
Thoughts?
-August
--- SQUONKSTAIL@aol.com wrote:
> On 23 Aug SQUONKSTAIL commented:
>
> Me prev:
> > > Namely the fact that young Phaedrus was
> confronted with the SOM
> > > and its subject/object dilemma. There can't be
> any doubt about that!?
>
> > squonk: There is no dilemma.
>
> No dilemma in the subject/object metaphysics? You
> must be joking
> mr. whatever is you name.
>
> sq: I am not joking. A dilemma is a choice between
> two undesirable
> alternatives. In this case, the two undesirable
> alternatives are between subjective or
> objective quality. But once subjects and objects are
> seen as illusory, Quality
> becomes primary and the dilemma dissolves.
>
> > Phaedrus was asked if he was teaching
> > Quality. This made him reflect upon Quality and he
> discovered that it
> > is primary reality.
>
> OK I accept this short version of the long argument
> that led to the
> Quality Insight.
>
> sq: There is no argument. No argument at all. One
> does not require
> argumentation to establish Quality. The only
> arguments are those between philosophical
> systems of thought which take subjects and objects
> to be primary.
>
> > Subjects and objects then become aesthetic
> > creations of the intellect.
>
> In ZMM there are no levels, he merely says that
> Quality creates
> subjects and objects.
>
> sq: Only if you take subjects and objects to be
> primary. If you do not take
> subjects and objects to be primary, then you cannot
> say Quality creates them.
> This begs the question, Why are subjects and objects
> taken to be primary?
> The answer is that they are artistic creations by
> the intellect. Intellect is
> created by Quality.
>
> However introducing the full-fledged MOQ on to
> this it means that the subject/object divide is a
> value level, and as he
> calls it "pre-intellectual" it means the
> intellectual level.
>
> sq: Pre-intellectual as in this instant. Not as in
> before the intellect
> evolved.
>
> "Aesthetic
> creation of the intellect" ... OK, in the same sense
> that the human
> organism is an aesthetic creation of Biology, but it
> is Quality that
> creates both Biology and Intellect in the first
> place.
>
> sq: In this instant, pre-intellect, there is a
> harmonious preselection based
> on Quality. There are no subjects and objects -
> Poincare saw this too.
>
> > They are human inventions. There are no
> > subjects and objects in the Metaphysics of
> Quality.
>
> Human what? It sounds uncannily like "human mind".
> If so you are
> back at square one ...where you have been all the
> time.
>
> sq: Humans exist in social groups. My intellectual
> patterns are the result of
> many value choices made throughout human history. I
> can be intelligent and
> creative without subjects and objects.
>
> > However, the MoQ
> > explains why we may think subjects and objects are
> primary.
>
> Exactly!
>
> > The MoQ
> > also tells us the intellectual development that
> eventually asserted
> > subjects and objects began in prehistory,
>
> Intellect may have hatched within social reality for
> ages, I don't deny
> that, but it is its EMERGENCE that counts. See my
> entry in the Peirce
> thread.
>
> sq: I am extremely familiar with you views and at
> one and the same time as
> being familiar with them i feel i understand them,
> and at one and the same time
> as being familiar with and understanding your views
> i also reject them. You
> know this.
>
> > and that initially, subjects
> > and objects are biological and social in nature -
> the desire for the
> > opposite sex and recognition of the established
> leader.
>
> Social in origin naturally because all levels start
> as a parent level
> pattern, but not in the "opposite sex" or
> "recognition of leader" sense.
> Btw. how can particular patterns of the intellectual
> level be of social
> and/or biological nature? All patterns of a level
> are of that level's
> nature!!!!! Your perception of the MOQ is very
> strange.
>
> sq: If you are very muscular, bully others for
> sexual and social advancement,
> and if i have a symbol which indicates all this
> which may be, 'HIM' we have:
> 1. A biological pattern of Quality recognition which
> is felt at the
> biological level.
> 2. A Social pattern of Quality recognition which is
> felt at the social level.
> 3. An Intellectual pattern of Quality recognition
> which is felt at the
> intellectual level.
> 4. All patterns exist and evolve simultaneously with
> DQ.
> Are you an object to my subject? No, you are
> experienced in many differing
> ways which cannot be encapsulated within the
> intellectual framework of subjects
> and objects - reality is a dynamic process of
> values.
>
> Sincerely
> Bo
>
> sq: And you.
>
> PS
> Please mr ?? Can't you edit your posts in a way that
> makes it possible
> to see who is speaking, and don't you have a line
> length setting in
> your mail program?
>
> sq: I shall try.
> squonk
>
>
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