From: abahn@comcast.net
Date: Wed Sep 24 2003 - 16:25:51 BST
Hi Sam,
Thanks for the reply.
:-)
Sam: "I think that you are equating DQ and intellect in the analogy, ie that it
is by letting go andflowing with the current that you become intellectual - if
you cling you are following static(social?) patterns. Is that correct? (It's
definitely a variation on Pirsig, but that's not necessarily a bad thing)."
Andy: Well, Yes and No. I am really equating DQ with the stream. I am
equating intellect with the front-end of society, with the individuals who are
clinging furthest downstream. If you cling you do not necessarily have to be
following social patterns, but you are using SQ. The division between the
social and intellectual level in this analogy would be extremely murky. The SQ
DQ split is a little more obvious. I think letting go and flowing with the
stream has some intellectual components, but it also has some mystical
components to it. It is the moments of inspiration or enlightenment that occurs
in the act of creating. Eventually these moments are brought back to the rest
of society. The inspiration of an individual is a gift to all of society. In
the beginning, as a small number of individuals begin to grasp onto this
inspiration the intellectual level is being born. However, eventually, if this
gift of inspiration becomes ingrained in a culture, it becomes part of the
social level. In this way society moves forward through time--like a river.
Sam: "I like the thought about existing in DQ with someone else. One thing that
I have been mulling on recently is the 'loneliness' of existence at the fourth
level (ie when you awareness functions and explores there). I relate it to Jesus
saying there is no giving and receiving in marriage in heaven. I wonder how far
the creation of the ego by the social level (which I see as the 'vehicle' which
goes off for purposes of its own on the fourth level) is an isolating process,
so that there can never be a genuine sharing or meeting of minds at that level.
(This doesn't rule out human contact or relationships of course, just reminds
that they need to be sustained 'whole bodily' ie by all the levels at once).
Perhaps the most there might be is a shared delight in the DQ - 'Look at that!'.
Just some musings."
Andy: I think I agree whole-heartedly. I think inspiration is a solitary
experience. But if this inspiration cannot be brought back to others it is a
wasted experience. This is the folly of mysticism (I think). It neglects the
most important part of the intellectual level. That is--that this level exists
for the purpose of serving the social level. I think many people who are caught
up in spiritual and religious expeience and lifestyles are solely conserned with
their own personal salvation. This neglects a responsibility to society that I
think all individuals must share. Of course, this is exactly my interpretation
of what jesus was teaching.
Sam: "On the economic front, I was wondering how you might relate the levels to
various economic phenomena, especially money. I was thinking the other day that
money is something else which was created for a particular purpose (exchange of
value) but which has gone off on purposes of its own - ie it is no longer tied
to a particular good, eg gold or whatever, but is now a store of value in its
own right, and the financial whizzkids dream up lots of creative ways to
manipulate money in order to generate more money."
Andy: This mystery of money is what led me to study economics. I don't know
how to relate it to the levels. Money is a social phenomena and it is meant to
facilitate trade. The point you are making, I think, is that money has no value
in its own right. Society gives it value by trusting others will also give it
value. It represents a bundle of goods and services. I suppose individuals in
the finance industry are working in the intellectual level when they are
dreaming up ways of making money work for them and then passing on this
information to others. I don't think money has a purpose of it's own, it is
only that some individuals are very creative in discovering new ways to use it.
Cheers,
Andy
> Hi Andy,
>
> Thanks for this exploration of Richard Bach. I was once a great fan of his -
> that started to ebb
> when I failed to do any 'cloud busting'! But Illusions has got some great
> insights in it, including
> the story of the river creatures.
>
> However, two sets of comments on what you wrote. The first about the analogy,
> the second about
> economics.
>
> I think that you are equating DQ and intellect in the analogy, ie that it is by
> letting go and
> flowing with the current that you become intellectual - if you cling you are
> following static
> (social?) patterns. Is that correct? (It's definitely a variation on Pirsig, but
> that's not
> necessarily a bad thing).
> Secondly, I like the thought about existing in DQ with someone else. One thing
> that I have been
> mulling on recently is the 'loneliness' of existence at the fourth level (ie
> when you awareness
> functions and explores there). I relate it to Jesus saying there is no giving
> and receiving in
> marriage in heaven. I wonder how far the creation of the ego by the social
> level (which I see as
> the 'vehicle' which goes off for purposes of its own on the fourth level) is an
> isolating process,
> so that there can never be a genuine sharing or meeting of minds at that level.
> (This doesn't rule
> out human contact or relationships of course, just reminds that they need to be
> sustained 'whole
> bodily' ie by all the levels at once). Perhaps the most there might be is a
> shared delight in the
> DQ - 'Look at that!'. Just some musings.
>
> On the economic front, I was wondering how you might relate the levels to
> various economic
> phenomena, especially money. I was thinking the other day that money is
> something else which was
> created for a particular purpose (exchange of value) but which has gone off on
> purposes of its own -
> ie it is no longer tied to a particular good, eg gold or whatever, but is now a
> store of value in
> its own right, and the financial whizzkids dream up lots of creative ways to
> manipulate money in
> order to generate more money.
> Again just a thought.
>
> Thanks for the stimulating paper.
>
> Sam
>
>
>
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