Re: MD The final solution or new frustration.

From: Scott R (jse885@spinn.net)
Date: Fri Oct 03 2003 - 17:49:34 BST

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    Platt,

    > Platt:
    > Here's where our major difference lies. I go along with Pirsig's idea that
    the
    > cutting edge of DQ is pure experience prior to disintegration into
    patterns,
    > symbols, thoughts and ideas. You say the cutting edge is patterns,
    symbols,
    > thoughts and ideas, as if that once you become an adult you'll never
    > experience anything again for the first that isn't an intellectual
    > pattern of one sort or another. Is that an accurate summary of your
    > belief?.

    No. The cutting edge is thinking, not the patterns, symbols, thoughts and
    ideas produced by thinking. Thinking is where one finds the creative, new,
    and free in our lives. This does not mean there is no Quality in patterns at
    all levels, but it is thinking, especially in the form of meditation, that
    helps us perceive that Quality. It is, though, static quality, not dynamic.

    > > Scott:
    > > I am referring to "mindful" in the sense that Zen does: to be as aware
    > > as possible of what is "in your mind" at the moment, whether that is the
    > > pain from a hot stove or thinking about Quality.
    >
    > Platt:
    > Is Zen awareness intellectual quality?

    Yes. It is pure thinking, thinking with the object, not just thinking about
    the object.

    > Platt:
    > Didn't you just say "mindful" meant being aware of your own thinking?
    > Now you say we don't know the experience of thinking before we think..
    > What's the difference between 'awareness' and 'thinking.?'

    None, ultimately. In our limited selves we separate perception from
    thinking. Franklin Merrell-Wolff's name for the Ultimate is
    Consciousness-without-an-Object. We can't possibly understand that, and pari
    passu we can't understand awareness or thinking (hence the need for the
    logic of contradictory identity). My objection to the MOQ is that wants to
    restrict this Mystery to Quality, while ignoring that it also applies to
    Intellect.

    - Scott

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