From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Fri Oct 03 2003 - 21:05:53 BST
Platt
I am happy to say that mystic experience and language
points to the existence of DQ. This may or may not be
the opposite of thinking. I want DQ to have the largest possible
relationship to our existence, so I want to talk about DQ as an aspect
of all experience, including thinking. I grant that certain experiences
make it harder for DQ to be acknowledged but that does not mean
impossible. You want to say DQ is sometimes part of our experience
under special circumstances, I want it always to be an aspect, although
probably more or less prominent. Take te static pattern of recognising
a tiger. Something flashes past, at a strange angle, in a strange place,
-I would think some DQ is needed to recognise the static pattern of the
tiger
in all its different, sometimes original circumstances and guises.
'Quality splits into DQ/SQ.' -but the underlying unity always remains.
DQ is "too obscure for existing language." -yes, we need new language
> DQ is the "pre-intellectual cutting edge of reality." - OK, and it pours
itself into our creative thinking/being/experience
> DQ is "the undefined fittest." -yes, we value first and then turn to
thinking, but the DQ jkeeps pouring into it
> DQ "cannot be defined in any encyclopedia." - but we can acknowledge it
in out new encyclopedias, we are acknowledging it here, it is the
pre-distinctions unity, so that means before both DQ/SQ -because that is a
distinction, Pirsig really should say Quality here to be consistent.
" . . .thoughts . . . are no more than sets of static patterns. These
> patterns can't by themselves perceive or adjust to DQ."
>
-established thoughts-yes, creative thinking -No, this is full of DQ, DQ
requires us to have new thoughts, I agree that DQ comes first but then I
think we can say that everythings pours forth from DQ including thinking.
You seem to want to keep DQ pure by putting it into a corner, I think this
is a limiting view, better to have DQ
pouring out into our cosmos, a static pattern is something that repeats,
first time round it is pure DQ, second time round
it can be called SQ.
over to you...
Regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Platt Holden" <pholden@sc.rr.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: MD The final solution or new frustration.
> Hi David M,
>
> By mistake I lost your latest post on this subject addressed to me. So
> I won't be able to do much commentary. In reviewing your post in the
> archives, it appears your central question to me was: "You have not yet
> explained to me why I should draw a line saying thinking is only SQ."
>
> There are a number of places where Pirsig alludes to DQ as "mystic
> awareness" which is the opposite of "thinking." But perhaps this
> passage from Chp. 9 in LILA will help answer your question.
>
> "This, Phaedrus thought, was why little children are usually quicker to
> perceive Dynamic Quality than old people, why beginners are usually
> quicker than experts, why primitive people are sometimes quicker than
> those of "advanced" cultures. American Indians are exceptionally
> skilled at holding to the ever-changing center of things. That is the
> real reason they speak and act without ornamentation. It violates their
> mystic unity. This moving and acting and talking in accord with the
> Great Spirit and almost nothing else has been the ancient center of
> their lives."
>
> Other reasons why I draw a line between DQ and SQ:
>
> Quality splits into DQ/SQ. SQ is the the conceptual (thinking) part.
> DQ is the "conceptually unknown."
>
> Also, consider these quotes:
>
> DQ is "too obscure for existing language."
> DQ is the "pre-intellectual cutting edge of reality."
> DQ is "the undefined fittest."
> DQ "cannot be defined in any encyclopedia."
>
> And from Chp. 13:
>
> " . . .thoughts . . . are no more than sets of static patterns. These
> patterns can't by themselves perceive or adjust to DQ."
>
> Back to you,
>
> Regards,
> Platt
>
>
>
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