From: johnny moral (johnnymoral@hotmail.com)
Date: Mon Nov 03 2003 - 20:22:53 GMT
hi folks,
>DMB (I think says):Rorty's truth
> > is such a flimsy and arbitrary kind of truth, but Pirsig insists there
>is
> > something that holds it all together, just as there is something that
>holds
> > the glass together and lets you drink.
johnny: I don't see how intersubjective agreement could be called
arbitrary. It is what it has to be. I think dmb imagines people having a
meeting or something, and reaching some hasty compromise about what is true.
What happens is that history dictates what people believe, our shared
mythos, morality, creates intersubjective agreement, and from that
intersubjective agreement, more history and mythos and morality are created
into the future. I think we should think of intersubjective agreement and
quality as synonyms, though perhaps each brings to mind a different part of
the same cycle.
>Pirsig's answer says Anthony is:
>The answer provided by Pirsig is that the atoms of the glass can be said,
>metaphysically, to value sticking together.
johnny: I think Morality values the glass to continue to be a glass, and if
we want to look at it with a microscope, Morality will value us finding
atoms there, behaving morally, as expected.
>Yes, value is the key. DQ is free, the only cause of SQ is DQ valuing its
>existence, it allows it to repeat.
Johnny: I agree with this definition of DQ completely. I put it this way
though, to most everyone's chagrin: value is expectation being realized, a
pattern is an expectation, a moral. I am still promoting the word
"Expectation" as a more enlightening synonym for Quality and Morality and
Reality that drives home the ontological process of Morality. The only
reason patterns contnue (aka SQ) is because value comes from them being
continued, and Love is the love of this value, the energy or force that
realizes expectation so as to reap the value. Perhaps this value then in
turn becomes the energy for Love to continue eternally.
>Rorty's theory of truth is closely linked, what is true for us will depend
>on what we value.
>Don't see why a MOQer would have a problem with this.
>Value holds everything together it seems, not so flimsy.
>Truth depends on language and value. Rorty and Pirsig agree.
johnny: me too! :)
>What we value has all kinds of sources see Charles Taylor's
>Sources of the Self. The status of truth has to be similar
>to the status of Newton's laws of physics as discussed in ZMM.
>The 'truth' concept is a cultural phenomenon, and subject to
>the quality of cultural phenomenon as Rorty discusses. Can't
>see why a Pirsig reader would lose any sleep over what Rorty says.
>When people here start to complain about Rorty they are always talking
>about stuff that Rorty does not write about or arguing with a position
>he does not take.
>
>regards
>David M
Right. I don't think Rorty is wrong about anything, I just think it
obfuscates because it seems to put the focus too far down the line and
doesn't highlight the dependence on history and morality. When he says
truth is a cultural phenomen, it seems to denigrate truth, culture, and
phenomenons all at the same time, when what is called for is great respect
of these things. It is right that morality and truth are maleable, but it
is morality and truth that hold themselves together even as they change.
Rorty seems to be saying that it is US that do that, and that makes people
upset. The respect should be given to Morality, not us, as we are just one
of Morality's creations.
Johnny Moral
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