From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Fri Dec 19 2003 - 22:57:54 GMT
Hi Platt
Well I a European socialist, a post-secular mystic in my recognistion
of DQ, deeply concerned with the awful behaviour of ALL the
men of violence, and whilst congratualting capitalism's delivery
of technology and productive power, concerned about its SOM,
its use of people as means rather than ends, its authoritarianism,
its global waste and threat, its dumbing down effects of market
exploitation, the inequality that reduces the quality and potential
DQ of millions of lives. But I strongly agree that Europe needs to
overcome its secularism, but suggest the US needs to throw off the yoke
of its capitalism. Capitalism has now become a block of DQ change
in the world. Mainly due to its support of inequality that is wasting
the DQ resource of millions of people by giving them no chance to better
themselves. I also agree that the problem with socialism eastern europe
style was the lack of DQ, but capitalism in US is producing big social
problems
now, basic security on the street and in the home is terrible. Western
europe
has kept up a better level of state security/help/less inequality than the
US without becoming
static in terms of development and intellectual freedom.
Also:"Destroying an inferior culture is better than
> allowing that inferior culture to become a threat."
Well, destroying may not be the only option, it may also
mean that ceasing to be the superior culture through the degradation
of war, and it would be better to be defeated then to destroy both cultures.
Also victory may not be possible via war, and long wars will reduce
quality in all cultures. Unless you buy into a victory fantasy there are
other options,
and victory is never certain, always risky, and perhaps even dangerous for
the victor.
Would we be better off without the battle of the sexes?
Better to change, influence and raise up the other culture. I do not
really think that the modern world will be eradicated by fundamentalism.
There is much media panic and hysteria. Also, the other culture always
contains both aspects that are above and below your own culture or
just plain different and interesting and offering to make the whole richer.
I think the conflict has roots other than a battle of cultures.
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Platt Holden" <pholden@sc.rr.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 6:14 PM
Subject: MD Battle of Values
> Hi All,
>
> Looking at the world today one sees three forces of value engaged in a
> titanic struggle.They are radical Islam, Western European secular
> socialism, and American Judeo-Christian capitalism.
>
> On this site we haven't radical Islam's ideology expressed, due in part I
> imagine to the language barrier. But, there can be little doubt that MD
> participants come down on one side or the other in clash between secular
> socialism and Judeo-Christian capitalism.
>
> Those on the secular socialist side rightly appeal to Pirsig's placement
> of the intellectual level higher than the social level whose static
> religious patterns are antithetical to the morally superior rule of
> objectivity and reason. Those on the capitalist side rightly appeal to
> Pirsig's identification of Dynamic Quality as the highest good of all, but
> whose creative power and drive towards freedom goes unrecognized by the
> intellectual level.
>
> In Pirsigian terms, the war on terrorism is a moral war--intellectual
> level vs. a static social level Islamic fundamentalism that uses the
> biological behavior of physical attack to attain its goals. "Intellectuals
> must find biological behavior, no matter what its ethnic connection, and
> limit or destroy destructive biological patterns with complete moral
> ruthlessness, the way a doctor destroys germs, before those biological
> patterns destroy civilization itself." (Lila, chp. 24) Further, Pirsig
> writes to Anthony McWatt, "Destroying an inferior culture is better than
> allowing that inferior culture to become a threat."
>
> Is there anyone reading this who disagrees with moral rightness of the war
> on terrorism as morality is defined in the MOQ? If so, direct quotes from
> Pirsig's works will be needed to refute. Emotional responses based on
> personal dislike of the U.S. or Bush for alleged "arrogance" or "bullying"
> won't cut it. Of course, you can always try to show the MOQ to be wrong-
> headed, but that is a tall order because you will have to explain the
> existence of values somehow.
>
> The moral status of Western European secular socialism vs. U.S. Judeo-
> Christian capitalism is, as pointed out above, not so cut and dried in the
> MOQ moral hierarchy. Certainly Pirsig has low opinion of the moral status
> of the religiosity of Christian fundamentalists, although he laments the
> loss of the Judeo-Christian values of " . . . their optimism, their belief
> in the future, their codes of craftsmanship and labor and thrift and self-
> discipline that really built twentieth-century America. Since the
> Victorians disappeared the entire drift of this century has been toward a
> dissipation of these values." (Lila, chp. 17) Also, Pirsig is unwilling to
> shelve religious experience completely, saying, "The Metaphysics of
> Quality identifies religious mysticism with Dynamic Quality." (Lila, chp.
> 30)
>
> It is Pirsig's recognition of the "mystic" throughout the MOQ that argues
> most strongly in behalf of my belief that the MOQ rejects European
> secularism socialism Further, the fact that Pirsig ties mysticism to DQ,
> and socialism to the absence of DQ, strongly suggests he favors the
> openness and freedom of the U.S. capitalist system. Again, those who
> object to my analysis will should use quotes from Pirsig instead of
> repeating party propaganda.
>
> Finally, there's a marvelous similarity in a line from the MOQ and a line
> in America's Declaration of Independence. From the MOQ we read, "From the
> baby's point of view, something, he knows not what, compels attention.
> This generalized "something," Whitehead's "dim apprehension," is Dynamic
> Quality." (Lila, chp. 9) From the Declaration we read, "We hold these
> truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are
> endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these
> are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."
>
> We're born free, created by DQ so we can experience DQ as life, liberty
> and the pursuit of happiness. It's my belief that DQ has also created in
> us a sense of beauty to guide our pursuit of happiness.
>
> Unless Western European secular socialism can somehow recognize and
> account for mystic DQ, it seems to me their moral status leaves something
> to be desired if one accepts the premises of the MOQ.
>
> Platt
>
>
>
>
>
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