From: Steve Peterson (peterson.steve@verizon.net)
Date: Wed Jan 07 2004 - 17:53:44 GMT
Hi Platt,
Steve said:
>> At any rate, I'd like to suggest that the conflict between socialism and
>> capitalism is a matter of balancing human rights and property rights. For
>> example, my right to own all the good farming land in Chile may interfere
>> with another's right to eat. Also, other's rights to education and health
>> care may interfere with my right to benefit from the fruits of my own
>> labor.
Platt said:
> You raise a number of interesting issues that are controversial and
> perhaps should be discussed in a separate thread. For example, your
> presumption of rights to education and health care are not what Pirsig
> means by human rights which he describes as"usually the moral code of
> intellect vs. society, the moral right of intellect to be free of social
> control." (Lila, 24)
>
Steve said:
>> Its really a question of the mix in a mixed economy rather than a
>> difference in fundamental ideology. The terms capitalist and socialist
>> with respect to the US and Europe do not refer to the extreme utopian
>> ideals of each but rather the balance that each has struck between human
>> rights and property rights.
>>
>> Both American capitalists and European socialists have rights to property.
>> Both have governments that will take one person's property and give it to
>> others. These two statements seem mutually exclusive, depending on what is
>> meant by "right." Perhaps they can make sense if you think of rights as
>> context dependent rather than absolute.
>>
>> How would you define "right"? I included Rick in the address line because
>> he might have some legal background to help clear this up.
>
Platt said:
> I would argue that your distinction between property and human rights is a
> false dichotomy for the simple reason that mind/body, subject/object are
> false splits. There can be no human rights without property rights. Only a
> slave works with no right to the product of his effort.
Steve:
I accept that my "distinction between property and human rights is a false
dichotomy for the simple reason that mind/body, subject/object are false
splits" if you take that simple reason to be that all dichotomies are false,
even DQ/SQ. What remains is that some dichotomies can be worked with better
than others and the question of the workability of the distinction I
suggested.
> In any case, how to define "right" is a deeply interesting question for it
> defines the relationship between individuals and society, between the
> intellectual and social levels. So I hope you question triggers a new
> thread with many contributors offering their views based on their
> understanding of the MOQ.
No one else suggested a definition so I'll try.
I think that rights and responsibilities are related to definitions. For
example, to say that the legislature has the right to make laws is simply to
say that if it couldn't make laws by definition it would not be the
legislature. To say that a police officer has the right to arrest criminals
is to say that if he could not arrest criminals he would not be a police
officer.
In the case of human rights, I think we mean, without these things we would
not be human. Rights of a citizen are those things that define us as
citizens. Likewise, governments have a responsibility to protect the rights
of its citizens or by definition it would not be a government.
I think this is pretty much how Wilber defines rights and responsibilities
in SES if I remember correctly. Of course he would have related them to
holons which would help to sort out which rights are primary.
It will be interesting to think about the consequences of defining rights
this way and see how it fits with the MOQ levels, but first I'd like to know
if you accept those terms of discussion.
> On second thought, maybe you've hit on the essential question in the
> battle of values between European secular socialism and American Judeo-
> Christian capitalism, i.e. human rights vs individual rights. Let me think
> on this some more.
Ditto.
Thanks,
Steve
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Wed Jan 07 2004 - 20:26:05 GMT