From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Sat Jan 10 2004 - 12:08:41 GMT
Hi
You say:When Pirsig uses subject-object metaphysics he also is referring to
a
distinction between subjective experience and objective experience. I don't
think intellect depends on making such metaphysical assumptions.
DM: clearly a large aspect of intellectual activity relies
on the primary/secondary experience distinction that is related to SOM.
It is also a distinction that the humanities mistakenly follow as Pirsig
points out RE: anthropology.
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Peterson" <peterson.steve@verizon.net>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 11:24 PM
Subject: Re: MD The MOQ: An expansion of rationality
> Hi DM,
>
> >Steve said: During this social era, which I take to mean the era
> > before intellect
> > reached a certain degree of freedom from social control, such an
explanation
> > of experience was still an example of intellect. Spirits seeking mother
> > earth has been proven to be a bad intellectual pattern, but it is still
an
> > intellectual pattern, a pattern of thought.
>
> > DM: I see what you're saying. I think Bo's point is that it is only once
> > the SO divide is being used by thinking that is has the sort of
power/use
> > that we would now call intellectual. Any other suggestions for a sort
> > of thinking that is intellectual but does not use SO divide?
>
> Steve:
> In the MOQ, intellectual is a type of pattern of value. Such usage must
be
> distinguished from that of labeling a person an intellectual. Everyone
> thinks, by which I mean everyone participates in intellectual patterns,
but
> not everyone is considered an intellectual. I think when you say "only
once
> the SO divide is being used by thinking that is has the sort of power/use
> that we would now call intellectual" I take you to be talking about the
high
> quality of the intellectual pattern of distinguishing subjective and
> objective experience. It is a good intellectual pattern, not the only
one.
>
> The question also depends a lot on what you (and Bo) mean by the SO
divide.
> When Pirsig uses the term subject-object metaphysics, I don't take him to
be
> criticizing the structure of grammar with it's subjects and predicates,
for
> example. When one uses the pronoun "I" he has not necessarily committed an
> SOM sin. I take Pirsig to be talking about a metaphysical assumption that
> primary reality is composed of mental substances and material substances.
> Perceived qualities such as color, odor, and temperature are secondary
> qualities (less than real) since material substance is composed of
particles
> that have no such properties, and such qualities as emotions are tertiary
> qualities even further removed from primary reality.
>
> When Pirsig uses subject-object metaphysics he also is referring to a
> distinction between subjective experience and objective experience. I
don't
> think intellect depends on making such metaphysical assumptions.
>
> Intellect logically has to be in place before philosophy can evolve, since
> one must think before he can think about thinking, so SOM philosophical
> assumptions cannot be the equivalent of intellect.
>
> > Also you say: mathematics for example does not require the supposition
of
> > material
> >> substances interacting with mental substances.
> >
> > See the possibility of an argument that maths does exactly this via
> > its use of the concept of space as a form of experience:
>
> > http://www.geoffreyread.org/fate.html
>
> That's a really long paper. Could you summarize the relevant argument?
>
> Regards,
> Steve
>
>
>
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