From: Valuemetaphysics@aol.com
Date: Thu Jan 29 2004 - 16:09:35 GMT
Mark,
Against my better judgment I will engage your posting.
Mark 29-01-04: Mati, you are beginning to adopt the idiosyncrasies of Bo. Be
careful!
Because of space limitations, allow me to cut chaff?
I respect Zen Buddhism... Mark 29-01-04: Cut.
Mati:
Mark writes:
The MoQ describes... ...and without a single answer. Mark 29-01-04: Cut.
Mati:
>From my perspective SOLAQI only does one very important thing, it nails down
the static level in terms of intellect.
Mark 29-01-04: This may be in Bodvar's metaphysics, but not in the MoQ.
Mati:
So how does SOLOQI account for creativity, it doesn't!
Mark 29-01-04: Then Bodvar's metaphysics is useless with regard to exploring
creativity. However, the MoQ has a great deal to say about creativity.
Mati:
Bo commented on this when he wrote,
"They think about concepts like aesthetics, intuition, intelligence, ..
things beyond the S/O divide and want Q-intellect defined in such a way
that it supports all these. Even Pirsig of LC seems to have joined the
chase.
But all these things are facets of the dynamical aspect of existence -
out of which Phaedrus picked "the mother of them all" QUALITY. To a
lesser or greater extent they all share the same ambiguity that makes
it possible to construct a metaphysics similar to the MOQ around
them. This does not diminish P's achievement one iota, his stroke of
genius was to identify and challenge the SOM, then replace its S/O
slash with the Dynamic/Static one.
Mark 29-01-04: But Mati, this is Bo's opinion, and it is an opinion which has
been shown to be an incorrect interpretation based on ideas not present in
either ZMM, Lila and SODV ad infinitum.
However, 'aesthetics, intuition,' are accounted for in the MoQ as coherent
relationships between static patterns and DQ. Intelligence is this ongoing
process.
Mati qotes Bo:
As the present top level Intellect is our age's REASON and reason
can neither explain Quality nor its many variants. That's the whole
point of my insistence upon Q-intellect being S/OL (subject-object
logic). Intellect can't explain any of these ambiguous yet unavoidable
phenomena. It can't explain intelligence* in animals without reverting
to the slanderous "instinct" term, it can't explain our sense of beauty
..etc, .but places them all in its subjective box. Not part of reality!"
Mark 29-01-04: This is not what the MoQ says. This is Bodvar's metaphysics.
If you wish to know what the MoQ says about beauty, read The edge of chaos
where you will find relevant supporting quotes from ZMM, Lila and SODV.
Mark writes: The MoQ... ...static description). Mark 29-01-04: Cut.
Mati: Acknowledging DQ exists, even as a repertoire and then calling it
a "Static description of the intellect" doesn't make sense.
Mark 29-01-04: I do not say this. I say the repertoire is in a relationship
with DQ. The term DQ is a static word, but it points to
nothingness/emptiness/that which cannot be conceptualised/unpatterned, etc.
Mark: When you say... ...severe conceptual wall. Mark 29-01-04: Cut.
Mati: If you are saying that accepting SOLAQI conceptually as the
"static" level as the defining factor of intellect, you are right. All
levels have a severe, conceptual wall. The wall from the inorganic to
the biological is pretty severe is one example.
Mark 29-01-04: Thank you for agreeing with me with regard to Bo's
Metaphysics.
If you investigate reason, you may discover that it is a matter of aesthetic
appreciation as to what reason actually is. There is no one reason, there is
no one truth - not even in mathematics. To define intellect in terms of logic
or reason disenfranchises peoples and cultures who fall outside the definition
you have imposed. In a severe case, that may even be almost racist?
In the MoQ, all levels do not have a severe conceptual wall if you accept DQ
is always in a relationship with the static repertoire of the level - the
level is evolving towards DQ and is motivated by DQ. For example, at the level of
the organic cell, the static aspect of a cell is its protective protein. The
Dynamic aspect is the delicate DNA. The relationship between these two is vital
for continued evolution, and the MoQ says that evolution is towards DQ. As DQ
is unconceptualised, how can an MoQ description of the cell be other than
unbounded by conceptualisation?
Mark: When... ...beautiful and ethical process. Mark 29-01-04: Cut.
Mati: One thing language provided was a capacity to reflect a host of
values from S/O to DQ/SQ. That is not to say that values come from
language, but rather language can reflect the values we experience.
This includes all aspects of life, again from Inorg. to Intellect and
DQ/SQ. To say intellect is, "creative, Dynamic, beautiful and ethical"
is inaccurate. I think it would be, more accurate to stay that, "When
intellect as a SOL static reality is pervaded by the dynamic realities
of creativity, intuition, aesthetics,etc..., we begin to see the "Code
of Art" as the 4th dynamic morality."
Mark 29-01-04: This is Bodvar's metaphysics. The MoQ does not regard
Intellect as equal to what Bodvar's metaphysics calls the Subject/Object divide. The
MoQ is far wider than this narrow description.
Mark: As a teacher Mati... ...all children. Mark 29-01-04: Cut.
Mati: I am slowing becoming of the opinion that education is the process
of two realities. First, to establish high quality static values of
knowledge, with the capacity to recognize them as quality values.
Second, be true the 4th moral code, which is I believe can be a reality
with every child. A reality that needs to be fostered by family,
schools, community. The problem is we are to busy enforcing the 2nd and
3rd level of moral codes.
Mati
Mark 29-01-04: Imposing static intellectual patterns on Dynamic children is
an evil, and children rebel against them. Bodvar's metaphysics is severely
static in its conception - i shall leave you to draw your own conclusions Mati.
All the best,
Mark
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