From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Sat Jan 31 2004 - 13:57:35 GMT
Hi Steve
I am just saying that patterns exist whether we go
out and recognise them or not, patterns simply meaning
that there are tendencies, repeating aspects to the behaviour
of systems, otherwise it would be a chaos not a cosmos.
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "David MOREY" <us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 6:53 PM
Subject: Re: MD SOLAQI as gift of understanding
> Steve:
> To infer patterns of any kind, one must rise to the intellectual level
since
> inferences are intellectual constructs.
>
> DM:Disagree, there are all kinds of patterns going on in nature,
> interacting with each other in inorganic and non-human ways,
> nothing intellectual here in human sense, plenty of expectations
> and propensities exist though. Purpose/process/intelligence everywhere,
> but I suggest the intellectual term is kept for human abstract-symbollic
> reasoning.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Peterson" <peterson.steve@verizon.net>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 11:40 PM
> Subject: Re: MD SOLAQI as gift of understanding
>
>
> > Hi Platt, (Paul),
> >
> > >> Platt said:
> > >>> A question still remains unanswered, however. What level "perceives"
> that
> > >>> the intellectual level contains "many sets" of intellectual patterns
> of
> > >>> varying quality? An eye cannot see itself.
> > >
> > > Steve said previously:
> > >> It is not a "level" that perceives. Experience or awareness cannot
> itself
> > >> be a type of static pattern of experience. If Quality creates the
> static
> > >> patterns that represent our perceptions, it makes sense to me that
> Quality
> > >> is synonymous with awareness. Say hello to now!
> >
> > Platt said:
> > > In another post you wrote ". . . the dolphin could not perceive any
> value
> > > in the pattern of spoken symbols . . ." and attributed its learning
> > > ability to the biological (instinct) level and perhaps the social
> > > (copying) level. So, in the dolphin's case it would seem its awareness
> is
> > > a function of its level...
> >
> > Steve says:
> > Or you could say that it's level is a function of its awareness which is
a
> > way of saying that Quality creates static patterns.
> >
> > Platt said:
> > >yet you say its awareness "cannot itself be a
> > > type of static pattern of experience."
> > >
> > > It seems to me that awareness (Quality) at all levels is closely
> > > associated with the level in which the awareness occurs.
> >
> > Steve:
> > Let me first explain how I understand awareness and quality. Starting
> with
> > my own experience or awareness understood as Quality, I infer other
value
> > relationships in everything I experience. These value relationships are
> the
> > MOQ's static patterns. Thinking of these patterns of experience as
> > manifestations of Quality suggests that everything I experience is
itself
> > also awareness.
> >
> > I distinguish directly experienced value (i.e. Quality) and inferred
value
> > (i.e. static patterns of quality and dynamic quality) where inference is
> > itself a type of direct experience (i.e. participation in intellectual
> value
> > patterns). To actually be Quality is to value or to be aware. Pirsig
says
> > something to suggest this sort of internal/external view of Quality in
> ZAMM
> > where he relates Quality and care, though I may be 'subtly slipping back
> > into subject-object thinking.' Let me know if you think I am.
> >
> > That said, I agree that "awareness (Quality) at all levels is closely
> > associated with the level in which the awareness occurs" because
inferred
> > types of patterns can be equated with types of awareness.
> >
> >
> > >A fish cannot see
> > > the ocean it lives in. So, to escape from a one level of awareness to
be
> > > able to look at, examine and judge that level (as we are able to
examine
> > > and judge a dolphin's awareness) one must, it seems to me, rise to a
> > > higher level.
> >
> > To infer patterns of any kind, one must rise to the intellectual level
> since
> > inferences are intellectual constructs. I don't think there is a need
to
> > invoke a higher level to explain how intellectual level entities are
aware
> > of intellectual patterns. Intellect is defined as the skilled
> manipulations
> > of abstract symbols that stand for patterns of experience--any pattern
of
> > experience. Intellect's symbols can stand for other intellectual
patterns
> > as well as they can stand for other types of patterns of experience.
> >
> > Thinking about thinking is still thinking. However, I agree that having
> > philosophical sophistication is to be more aware, but I would call it a
> > higher stage (state, level) within the intellectual level of awareness.
> >
> > > What would you think of calling a level that could look down and
> evaluate
> > > the patterns of the intellectual level a level of mystic awareness?
> >
> > I think evaluation of intellectual patterns happens on the intellectual
> > level as explained above. I also think a higher level above the
> > intellectual could never be defined because definition is an
intellectual
> > activity. A lower level (intellect) can't contain a hypothesized higher
> one
> > (mystical).
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Steve
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
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>
>
>
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