From: Paul Turner (paulj.turner@ntlworld.com)
Date: Mon Feb 02 2004 - 14:27:27 GMT
David
David said:
Of course you cannot pin it down empirically because empiricism assumes
SO divide.
Paul:
Only an empiricism that starts with a subject experiencing an object.
Pirsig: "I think the trouble is with the word, "experience." ....In a
subject-object metaphysics, this experience is between a pre-existing
object and subject, but in the MOQ, there is no pre-existing subject or
object. Experience and Dynamic Quality become synonymous....So in the
MOQ experience comes first, everything else comes later. This is pure
empiricism, as opposed to scientific empiricism, which, with its
pre-existing subjects and objects, is not really so pure." [Lila's Child
p.548]
David said:
How do you think of quality in a non-conscious way?
Paul:
I can't *think* of anything in a non-conscious way. Thinking and
experiencing are not the same thing in the MOQ.
David said:
If quality is experienced then quality is within consciousness.
Paul:
Not if thinking and experiencing are not the same thing.
David said:
My problem with idealism is with its closure and failure to make room
for DQ. Consciousness, however, clearly is a concept that seems to hint
at/imply DQ. I think that we
use terms that overlap at various points. I like to think that we start
with a sort of
experiece/quality/conscious/free/value/care/Being/Be(com)ing whole and
then move on to a SQ/DQ differentiation followed by the full and never
ending differentiation of all SQ. I do think consciousness is closely
tied to DQ, Heidegger calls it the clearing into which Being gathers.
Paul:
If you equate consciousness with DQ then you have to explain the
difference between consciousness as DQ (mystic consciousness) and
consciousness as intellect (regular consciousness), so you end up with
two terms anyway - static and Dynamic Consciousness. In the MOQ we
already have a metaphysical monism in "Quality." I can't see what good
is gained from equating Quality with consciousness, but I can see the
negative effect of partially defining what has been deliberately left
undefined.
Regards
Paul
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