From: Matt poot (mattpoot@hotmail.com)
Date: Mon Mar 29 2004 - 17:06:12 BST
Hello,
I dont mean to go of course, but...
I am not really that fluent with biblical text, but have somewhat a grasp of
the story about the Tower of Babel.
I found it utterly fascinating, that the story describes humanity as
"speaking one language", and the progress they made. They were building a
Tower towards God. Then they were smote.
They worked as a whole, together, as friend rather than foe.
I think that the metaphorical value of this story is "good".
Perhaps I am wrong?
Matt
>From: "Platt Holden" <pholden@sc.rr.com>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>Subject: Re: MD quality religion
>Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:29:39 -0500
>
>Hi Wim,
>
>Never mind DMB's congenital negativism. Your post describing the
>"Religious Society of Friends" was a beautiful description of a beautiful
>religion. It's so close to my own idea of religion as to be almost
>indistinguishable. While you regularly gather with others in meetings to
>seek and experience God, I intermittently gather with others in concert
>halls, museums and the great outdoors to seek and experience DQ. While you
>remain silent until you and others are moved to speak, I remain silent to
>let the music, artwork or natural scene speak. But, these are mere
>quibbles.
>
>Thanks much for taking the time and trouble to explain what Quakers are
>all about. If I weren't an atheist, I'd probably be a Quaker, too. :-)
>
>Regards,
>Platt
>
>
>
> > Dear (potential) fans of at least one religion (-: ,
> >
> > High time to present as my favourite religion: Quakers alias the
>'Religious
> > Society of Friends', or rather the European variant, which I know best.
> >
> > Platt explained 17 Mar 2004 07:38:22 -0500 the difference between his
> > religion of 'pursuing Dynamic Quality by creating and contemplating art
>as
> > well as by pursuing beauty in all my endeavors' and 'other religious
> > activity' with: 'No need for intermediaries (church, rituals, priests,
> > gurus) to experience DQ.'
> >
> > If you substitute 'God' for 'DQ' this was the exact starting point of
> > Quakerism in 17th century England. And to cut a long (hi)story short:
>every
> > Quaker I know would probably agree with Platt's statement after some
> > explanation of the role of Dynamic Quality in the MoQ.
> >
> > In 1643 19 year old George Fox was shocked by the failure of alleged
> > Christians to live up to their Christian standards and (as he describes
>in
> > his 'Journal', which we might now call 'memoirs') was 'called' to leave
> > home and search spiritual help. Consulting without success priests,
>vicars,
> > dissenting preachers, so-called experienced people and everyone else he
> > could find, he at last (in 1647) 'heard a voice' which said: "There is
>one,
> > even Christ Jesus, that can speak to thy condition". He became an
>itinerant
> > preacher himself. He met people and religious groups with comparable
> > experiences and spoke in services of more established churches, sharing
> > essentially this message of the possibility of unmediated inspiration.
> >
> > This message became a unifying force for a growing group of people.
> > Consequences drawn were a refusal to take oaths, refusal to pay
>'hat-honor'
> > (taking your hat off for a 'superior'), refusal to pay church taxes for
>the
> > upkeep of a 'hireling' clergy, equality of status between members of the
> > movement, refusal of state authority over religious life, 'thee' and
>'thou'
> > language etc. etc.. In this time of civil war there was some political
> > space in England for the emergence of Quakers and other dissenting
>groups,
> > but they nevertheless faced persecution from the side of political and
> > religious authorities feeling (rightly) threatened. (A lot of them
> > emigrated to America, where now live larger numbers than in the whole of
> > Europe.)
> >
> > The form Quaker 'meetings for worship' took derived mainly from the
>groups
> > and individuals called 'Seekers', who joined Quakers in large numbers.
> > Being disappointed in existing churches and human endeavours to reform
> > them, they already had developed a discipline of waiting in silence,
>alone
> > or together, for some sort of 'Holy Spirit' experience, like -according
>to
> > the New Testament- in the early Christian church.
> >
> > The organization of this movement under persecution can be credited to
> > Margaret Fell, the (younger) wife of an elderly judge (who after his
>death
> > in 1658 married George Fox). She organized the writing of letters,
>keeping
> > track of people 'travelling in the ministry' and supporting Quakers in
> > prison. Local 'meetings for worship' organized themselves in regional
> > 'monthly meetings' where decisions on mutual support could be made and
>sent
> > representatives to a London-based 'meeting for sufferings' (referring to
> > inprisonments and other persecution).
> >
> > George Fox and his contemporary Quakers spoke traditional Christian
> > language and did agree on what contemporary Christians considered
>essential
> > Christian doctrines: the Unity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the
>Divinity
> > and Humanity of Christ, the reality of Sin and then need for Salvation,
>the
> > resurrection of Christ and his redemption of Sin, the Bible being
>divinely
> > inspired etc.. George Fox was said to know the bible almost by heart and
> > quoted it often. They refused to hold each other to the words in which
>they
> > were expressed though. In the words of George Fox as quoted by Margaret
> > Fell in her description of her convincement experience: 'He is not a Jew
> > that is one outward, neither is that circumcision which is outward, but
>he
> > is a Jew that is one inward, and that is circumcision which is of the
> > heart. ... The Scriptures were the prophets' words and Christ's and the
> > apostles' words, and what as they spoke they enjoyed and possessed and
>had
> > it from the Lord. Then what had any to do with the Scriptures, but as
>they
> > came to the Spirit that gave them forth. You will say, Christ saith
>this,
> > and the apostles say this; but what canst thou say? Art thou a child of
> > Light and hast walked in the Light, and what thou speakest is it
>inwardly
> > from God?'
> >
> > The religious practice Quakers (or 'Friends' as we call each other)
> > developed was one without ordained ministers, without the 'outward' kind
>of
> > 'holy' rituals called 'sacraments' in other churches (baptism, mass,
> > eucharist and so on), without 'confession of faith' as requirement for
> > membership, but with a strong sense of being able to experience God
> > directly and intimately and to get guidance from that experience for
> > everything from everyday behaviour, via special tasks (called
>'concerns')
> > you find on your path, to the general direction of one's life. 'Bring
>the
> > whole of your life under the ordering of the spirit of Christ ' as an
> > advice from 'Quaker faith & practice, the book of Christian discipline
>of
> > the Yearly Meeting of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) in
> > Britain' still reads. The main collective religious practices are
>'meetings
> > for worship' (silent, usually sitting in a circle, in which anyone can
>rise
> > to share a limited amount of words when feeling 'called' to do so) and
> > monthly (regional), yearly (roughly national) etc. 'meetings for
>business'
> > (interspersed with silence when necessary, guided by a sense of seeking
> > together for 'God's will for the meeting', open to all members and
>usually
> > attenders of the 'meetings for worship' in that area). They can be seen
>as
> > methods to practise this 'getting guidance'. 'Meetings for business' are
> > also used to test individual guidance against collective guidance
> > (including tradition and written sources of accepted wisdom) and vice
> > versa.
> >
> > Accepted language in Quakers meetings is much more diverse now than it
>was
> > in the 17th century. I know of no real limits. You can combine being
>Quaker
> > with being Buddhist or Universalist (recognizing what David B. called 27
> > Mar 2004 18:14:46 -0700 'the values that are common to all religions or
>the
> > mystical core of all religions') or even agnostic as far as the
>existence
> > of 'God' is concerned. Personal experience and practical application is
> > preferred over theology however. The defining characteristics of Quakers
> > are more in the (extreme simplicity and practicality of worshipping and
> > decision-making) methods than in any content, except for that original
>idea
> > -worded in very diverse ways, however- of the accessibility for all of
> > direct Guidance.
> >
> > Despite Platt's objections (13 Mar 2004 08:59:41 -0500) Quakerism IS
>based
> > on 'faith', but only in 3 out of the 4 senses identified by Steve
>Peterson
> > and Sam (21 Mar 2004 17:12:43 -0500 resp. 22 Mar 2004 07:16:59 -0000):
> > trust (in Guidance), loyalty (to Quaker methods of ascertaining
>Guidance)
> > and conviction (the decision to live by it), but not factual belief
> > (willingness to believe ideas that cannot be proved).
> >
> > Despite Platt's objections Quaker morality IS based on continuing
>'divine'
> > revelation. It is also given an intellectual basis in lots of
>contemporary
> > writings of Quakers, however, which have equal status as the Bible (and
> > when applicability counts even more). These are loosely latched in
> > anthologies of quotes and guidelines (like the above-mentioned 'Quaker
> > Faith & Practice' of British Friends) that are revised roughly once in
> > every generation.
> >
> > A life devoted to pursuing Dynamic Quality through art (Platt's
>religion)
> > would certainly fit a modern Quaker. Quaker religious practices can add
>(to
> > that religion) the opportunity to share with others what you find in an
> > environment that is sympathetic to any 'seeker' or 'student of religion'
> > and skeptical of anyone who pretends that religion (that re-connects us
> > with our source, DQ/God) can be a simple practising of existing methods
> > that 'reliably precipitate a mystical experience'. Quakerism is BOTH
> > profoundly mystical, experience-based, AND practical, bent on 'letting
>your
> > life speak'.
> >
> > Let me know if you have any questions.
> >
> > With f&Friendly greetings,
> >
> > Wim
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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> >
>
>
>
>
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