From: David Morey (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Tue Apr 06 2004 - 19:56:08 BST
Hi DMB
Glad you liked that, if you fancy reading my novel that
looks at a possible way of science itself closing up
some of this alienation let me know.
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Buchanan" <DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 12:07 AM
Subject: RE: MD secular humanism and dynamic quality
> David M said:
> I also suspect that part of the problem that allows
> fundamentalism is the withdrawal from the conversation
> of meaning that secularism represents. The urgent thing for
> me is to have a single conversation that can somehow
> integrate politics, religion, science, education. The post-modernist
> aversion to this leave us with a social crisis.
>
> dmb says:
> Exactly. Prior to the rise of Modernity art, morals and science were all
> integrated into a single world view. This rise of Modernity is marked by a
> differentiation of "the big three", as Wilber likes to call them. And it
was
> good for science to get out from under the church and all that. Each of
> these domians needed to mature and become independent before a modern
> intellectually guided soceity could become possible. The problem is that
> each of these domains has gone past the point of gaining its independence
> and have instead become dis-associated with each other. So what we need as
a
> next step is to begin a re-integration of things. I think this is exactly
> what Pirsig's MOQ tries to do. Thnik about his criticism of the way SOM
> undermines the subjective with the common phrase, "just subjective" and
his
> complaints about the inability of the metaphysics of substance to explain
> values - and then look again at what Wilber and friends say about this
kind
> of materialism...
>
> "But the inherent downsides of this approach are perhaps obvious: All
> subjective truths (introspection, consciousneess, art, beauty) and all
> intersubjective truths (morals, justice, substantive values) were
collapsed
> into exterior, empirical, sensorimotor occasions. Collapsed, that is, into
> dirt. Literally. The great nightmare of scientific materialism was upon us
> (Whitehead), the nightmare of one-dimensional man (Marcuse), the
> disqualified universe (Mumford), the colonization of art and morals by
> science (Habermas), the disenchantment of the world (Weber) - a nightmare
I
> have also called
> flatland. ...when modernity pledged allegiance to sensory science, and
> then promptly decided that the entire world contained nothing but matter,
> period. The bleakness of the modern scientific proclamation is chilling."
>
> dmb says:
> I think the "withdrawl from the conversation of meaning that secularism
> represents" is one of the main problems with the "disenchantment of the
> world" And that is also why I find myself so disenchanted with the kind of
> postmodernism that Matt has presented. Its part of that same problem, a
cure
> that is worse than the disease. It doesn't exactly fail to recognize the
> loss of meaning, but it fails to recognize the seriousness of the problem
> and instead offers up reassurances that we don't need meaning and could
> never have it anyway because there is no such thing. It breaks my heart
that
> anyone finds value in a thing so cold and empty as that.
>
>
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