Re: MD quality religion

From: Platt Holden (
Date: Tue Apr 06 2004 - 21:07:14 BST

  • Next message: "Re: MD relationship of SQ and DQ"

    Dear Wim,
    > You suspicious old man! (-: Can't you simply see my questions simply for
    > what they are: open-minded attempts to understand more of the religion you
    > nominate for best utilizing the MoQ vocabulary we share? You claimed to be
    > pursuing DQ 'by creating and contemplating art as well as by pursuing
    > beauty in all my endeavors', but didn't tell how you do that and how you
    > know that it is really DQ you are pursuing.

    I believe I said that one way I did it was by gathering in groups at
    concerts, in museums and in the great outdoors, comparing how I pursue DQ
    to you Quakers gathering in meeting houses. I know it's really DQ when I
    experience it shining all around me as my static patterns disappear. Isn't
    that they way you know DQ, or does it speak to you in Dutch?

    > As the newness of the patterns
    > of value that it leaves in its wake is the only criterion I know for
    > recognizing DQ, that's what I asked for.

    I recognize DQ has Pirsig described it. I haven't freed any static
    patterns or created any new ones that I know about. Have you?

    >You evaded my question whether you
    > would call yourself atheist if (there is a religion that allows) you (to)
    > interpret God as DQ. Not knowing such a religion is no excuse not to answer
    > that question. You could create one.

    Me? Create a religion? You give me more credit than I deserve. Even my
    large ego will not admit that I'm the second coming of Christ.
    Anyway, as a pointed out before, I'm not a fan of organized religions.

    > I'll add something more personal to explain my interest in 'pursuing DQ by
    > creating and contemplating art as well as by pursuing beauty':

    So. You had a hidden agenda all along. Glad you're bringing it out in the

    > I am working
    > for the European Cultural Foundation. I have nevertheless little affinity
    > with 'Art' and its larger brother (sister?) 'Culture' that's often
    > mentioned in the same breath.

    I agree with you about 'culture,' a big, balloon word with many meanings,
    none of which are easy to pin down.

    > I recognize it as a possible way to pursue
    > Dynamic Quality, but I am more conversant with 'Religion' and -to a lesser
    > extent- with 'Science' as alternative ways to do so.

    I agree that DQ can be pursued in many ways.

    > Working for the ECF
    > (and intending to do so for quite some time to come) I do need to develop
    > more affinity with art and culture, however. Maybe you and the connection
    > you make between art and religion can help me in this respect.

    All I can suggest is you visit Amsterdam where I believe there are a
    number of paintings by Rembrandt. See if he can't help you make the
    connection you seek.
    > When they hired me 1,5 years ago as administrator, I accepted the job NOT
    > primarily because I like bookkeeping and related types of work (I have a
    > talent for it, but my heart is not in it). I did because the idealism of
    > the ECF appealed to me and because I prefer to work for organizations I can
    > put my heart in. What appealed to me was primarily Denis de Rougemont's
    > vision after the 2nd World War of a Europe that would not only be an
    > economic and a political entity, but also a cultural entity.

    I thought the big thing these days among the elite was diversity, not

    > The ECF was
    > founded in 1954 to help create a European identity by promoting cultural
    > cooperation and an open and unified Europe, where cultural diversity can
    > flourish and enrich everyone.

    Which is it, unity or diversity? How can it be both at once?

    > It seeks to foster a sense of belonging for
    > everyone emphasizing the importance of cultural concerns for maintaining
    > human rights and democracy.

    I hope the arts aren't being used as political propaganda.

    > It does so by promoting (with grants and own
    > programmes) artistic and cultural initiatives of a socially motivated and
    > innovative nature in Europe and across its borders. It also lobbies at the
    > European level for the importance of arts and culture. It is financed
    > primarily (I'm ashamed to admit) with Dutch lottery income and has a budget
    > of some 4 million Euro a year (approximately 5 million USD).

    If European governments want to throw money at the arts, so be it. I
    consider it a waste of hard-earned taxpayer dollars. The only people who
    really benefit are those getting the government handouts. If the EFC
    really wants to help people become more conversant with art, they will
    arrange tours and provide the means for the people to attend concerts and
    see the great churches and museums that exist throughout Europe.

    > Back to your nomination (13 Mar 2004 08:59:41 -0500) of 'pursuing Dynamic
    > Quality by creating and contemplating art as well as by pursuing beauty in
    > all my endeavors' for the 'Religion Idols' competition I proposed. You
    > wrote 4 Apr 2004 17:06:38 -0400: 'Unfortunately, either I'm not very
    > responsive to DQ or DQ has passed me by. I have no philosophical ideas to
    > offer other than 1) Sometimes take a chance and do nothing because there's
    > no cost and always the possibility of a beneficial outcome, and 2) Create
    > works that will be admired for their beauty. As you can see, nothing new
    > there.' Are you aware that this doesn't particularly strengthen your case
    > in the 'best religion' competition?

    Well, I'm not out to convert anybody. Live and let live is my motto.

    > But let me help you out: I guess you
    > are not the only one practicing that religion and seeing it as a way of
    > 'pursuing DQ' (even if other may not use the term 'DQ', not knowing the
    > MoQ). You can present the combined practice of all practitioners of your
    > religion and the new patterns of value that the DQ pursued leaves in its
    > wake.

    You have to see for yourself. That's why I suggest visiting the great art
    centers of Europe.

    > So: What are the practical results of Art & Culture (in the sense in
    > which Denis de Rougemont used it) in general?

    The way Denis used it? Enriching bad artists. They way I suggest? Exposing
    the masses to DQ.

    > What are the static patterns
    > of value left in the wake of DQ pursued in this way?

    Happier, wiser people.

    > Does this Dynamic
    > Quality operate on social and intellectual patterns of value? Does it
    > induce them to 'migrate towards DQ'?
    It operates on both levels and would induce migration, you bet.

    Best regards,

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