Re: MD quality religion (Christianity)

Date: Tue Apr 13 2004 - 22:49:47 BST

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    Hi chaps

    On this one Mark I understand your fears about the Chritian perspective
    but am pretty sure they do not apply to Sam.

    Mark 13-4-04: I think 'fear' may be over doing it? ;-P Only joking. Bloody
    annoyed would be a better way of putting it!

    I am not a Christian
    myself but there are religious ways to retain some grasp of DQ
    that is excluded in SOM. You said:

    Mark 11-4-04: Well, i am not. Theistic concerns are, by their nature,
    very largely patterned in social values.

    This is to say that what may have begun at one level cannot play a role
    at another, even being transformed,
    at what level do neurons contribute for example? I see this as a bit of
    a dated comment, assuming
    that our culture only moves forward and away from the religious eras,
    just as romanticism keeps
    re-emerging so will religious thought.

    Mark 13-4-04: David M. I see what you are saying. Indeed, Quality keeps
    emerging? The Tao was one era, Robert Pirsig's Quality is another? Each time it
    emerges new developments can be seen in a better light; evolution may be included
    now as it could not have been before?
    It is this insight into the fundamental nature of experience that i enjoy,
    and i feel religion places far too many static patterns in the way of that.
    Zen is a mystic religion and tries to accommodate a living mundane world with
    insight into the fundamental nature of reality. That's better than Christian
    patterning in my view, but it is not for everyone? Some people need the
    support of a highly patterned religions?
    Sam wishes to keep Christianity separate from the MoQ, which is not possible;
    a Zen view would understand that Christianity is one way of going about
    revealing insight, but it is the insight which is important not Christianity. So
    how can Sam keep Christianity and the MoQ (which would broadly agree with the
    Zen view here) apart?
    This shows a chronic lack of understanding on Sam's part, and one he will,
    and can, sort out for himself. I only wish to help.

    David M:
    In terms of religious thought, to
    exclude what is happening in practice,
    some of the most interesting thought currently happening is appearing
    out of the post-secular side
    of philosophy and theology, and is going beyond post-modernism. But this
    is early days and few people are yet
    aware of it, keep your eyes open for it, I am pretty sure a post-secular
    change is coming, and I think this is
    a positive way of breaking out of SOM. We need to learn from each other
    and not be so sure that our perspective
    is as broad as we like to think in our more confined moments.

    David M

    Mark 13-4-04: I find reading your views refreshing after not getting a
    straight answer from Sam as to whether he believes the Virgin birth, resurrection,
    etc to be true?
    Sam tells us Christian myths are true, but what does that boil down to at the
    end of the day?
    The answer appears to be that Sam finds it acceptable to move away from
    asserting these events to be absolutely to have happened as described in scripture,
    to the position which says, "well, the scripture, like all other written
    information, exists, so in that sense it IS real. People use it as a guide to
    living, so in that sense it IS real. Therefore, i can legitimately argue that to
    be a Christian one simply does what a Christian is supposed to do in accordance
    with what scripture prescribes and in accordance with all other Christians. I
    am a Christian!"
    I find that to be a clever shifty way of getting out of looking damn stupid
    when you assert that Virginal birth actually and truly was an event. But it had
    to happen because let's face it, the Christian myths are childish and puerile
    aren't they?

    All the best,

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