Re: MD The Individual Level

Date: Wed Apr 14 2004 - 12:47:03 BST

  • Next message: "Re: MD The Individual Level"

    PART. 2.a

    Sam drones:
    "Breaking away from the social level

    Mark 14-4-04: Intellectual patterns break away from social patterns. It is
    not, 'the individual' breaking away from social patterns. Once again, Sam
    misunderstands the MoQ.

    Sam forges ahead with oblivious vigour:
    "Clearly the way to understand a fourth level, existing above the social
    level, is through describing the values which override social values.

    Mark 14-4-04: Yes. And these are Intellectual patterns which just happen to
    be held by individual Human beings in tension with social patterns which also
    compose the same individual Human beings.
    While this tension may be ascribed to individuals, the autonomous behaviour
    results from Intellectual patterns in conflict with social patterns.

    Sam carps:
    Thus, whatever the fourth level is, it must be something which emerges
    from the social level, but which cannot be captured through a description
    of the social level.

    Mark 14-4-04: When Sam contemplates mysteriously, "whatever the fourth level
    is" he is forgetting that the MoQ already has a fourth level thank you very
    much. Now, the social level are social patterns of value. Intellectual patterns
    of value may be said to emerge from social patterns, but this does not make
    Intellectual patterns social.

    Sam confuses himself and the weak minded further:
    More precisely, given that we are describing human
    activity, it must describe the way in which a particular human being
    rejects social values, in favour of a higher value.

    Mark 14-4-04: 'Human beings' don't reject social values, Intellectual
    patterns of value reject social patterns of value. The struggle between them IS part
    of what Human activity is about.

    Sam waxes sonorous to mould rhetorical weight:
    Put at its most
    simple, the fourth level occurs when a particular human being is able to
    say "My society says that this is good, but is my society right to say
    so?" - in other words, there is a questioning of social values.

    Mark 14-4-04: The question here is an Intellectual activity. It is the
    Intellect which is challenging Social value. That this challenge happens to coincide
    in one Human being results from this tension, not the individual. In other
    words, the individual IS the tension between challenging levels of value.

    Sam leads his bemused victim on down the shadowy path of guff:
    We are
    fortunate that there are some historical accounts of this process, and
    this history is one of the main strengths of my proposed revision.

    Mark 14-4-04: Well! That's Sam's thesis blown right there then isn't it?
    Because the historical accounts have been misunderstood.
    However, if we apply the MoQ to the same accounts, we don't find a problem.

    Sam tries to sound as though he knows what he is talking about:
    "The capacity to break out from social conditioning, ie to question social
    values, depends upon the ability to distinguish oneself as an individual
    apart from the various social roles that are played.

    Mark 14-4-04: Not so. Social excellence DOES distinguish one as an
    The MoQ makes this explicitly clear; celebrity status is all about standing
    out from the crowd and inviting everyone TO LOOK AT YOU. How more individual
    can you get?
    No, the social role of celebrity status IS individuality for pity's sake. The
    level of Sam's ignorance of the MoQ is quite shocking.
    The intellect isn't interested in celebrity status, but being intellectual
    can get you social status in two ways:
    1. For the sake of being famous for being an intellectual.
    2. By using intellect to out smart your rivals for social status.

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