Re: Re: MD The Individual Level

From: Platt Holden (
Date: Fri Apr 16 2004 - 17:13:38 BST

  • Next message: Dan Glover: "Re: Re: MD The Individual Level"

    Hi Steve Peterson,

    > I think that the misunderstanding that suggests eudamonia level for Sam
    > and individual level for Platt is conceiving of the levels as types of
    > people rather than types of patterns of value.

    For myself, besides the arguments Sam presents, it's a question of dominance.
    Only individuals create intellectual patterns. Most of us agree that those
    patterns existed and still exist at the social level. But when the
    individuals who created those patterns saw that the social level was a
    hindrance to their free expression, they gathered sufficient power to
    create a new level that freed them from the stifling confines of social
    level patterns, you know, freedom of religion, of speech, trial by jury,
    > Eudamonia and individual describe people, whereas Pirsig's intellectual
    > level is a collection of patterns of value of a particluar type.

    I don't see how you can divorce people from intellectual patterns.

    >When you
    > think of the levels as types of patterns where intellectual patterns are
    > simply patterns of thinking, then there is no need to do any renaming.

    I don't see how you can divorce individuals from patterns of thinking.

    > There is no better word than intellectual to describe the sort of pattern
    > that Pirsig refers to by the fourth level.

    Sam and I disagree.

    > I hope that the problems that
    > each of you found with the term intellectual will lead you to reconsider
    > how you have been thinking about what Pirsig means by level. As Ayn Rand
    > would tell you, when you encounter a contradiction, check your assumptions.
    > There are no contradictions.

    I see no contradictions in renaming the Intellectual Level the Individual
    Level. It's simply a proposal for a change for the better in the MOQ,
    something Pirsig encouraged.


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