From: Paul Turner (paul@turnerbc.co.uk)
Date: Mon Jul 26 2004 - 11:02:35 BST
Hi Mel
Paul previously said:
...I think the personal or individual success (or failure) that you
"hold out for" also occurs at other levels, so cannot be a defining part
of the intellectual level. In my experience, the most dominant measure
of personal success is wealth - a social level phenomenon. ..Anyway, in
my understanding of the MOQ, subordinating intellectual patterns to a
primarily social level goal of individual success is immoral.
Mel said:
Most people that I have encountered who truly believe wealth to be THE
significant measure of success for individuals have either:
A) Never made any real amount of money whatsoever ::or::
B) They are developmentally stunted individuals of low quality
Paul:
Regardless, the question remains - is it the most *dominant* measure of
success in western society?
For instance, here is a dictionary (M-W) definition of "success":
"degree or measure of succeeding b : favorable or desired outcome; also
: the attainment of wealth, favor, or eminence"
Wealth is clearly linked with success enough for it be part of its
definition. To put it another way, I ask you the same question I asked
Platt - do you think intellectual quality is the most dominant measure
of success in western society?
Mel said:
More typically the use of SUCCESS is oriented towards more specific
examples of an Outcome compared to an Intent. e.g. A successful.
surgery, garden, construction project,
dramatic performance, recital, fruit crop, training.etc.
Paul:
I'm talking about success in general terms, e.g. the answer to the
question a teacher may ask of a former student, "How is Paul doing?" The
answer to this would not normally be, "I hear he has a great loft
conversion."
Mel said:
We seem to have an implicit association of:
MONEY = Social Artifact.
Money may be just as much an intellectual tool as a social one.
Remember, the intellectual level is still dependent on the social and as
such will make use of it.
Paul:
I think the only intellectual aspects of money would be the static
patterns that make up the academic area of economic theory and the
mathematical formulae which accountants and treasurers use.
Mel said:
Non-commercial research is an example of a use of money for
intellectual...
Paul:
I would say that is intellectual patterns using social patterns to
enable their evolution.
Cheers
Paul
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