From: Paul Turner (paul@turnerbc.co.uk)
Date: Mon Jul 26 2004 - 13:49:16 BST
Hi Platt
(Apologies if you get this twice, but there seems to be something wrong
with the mail servers somewhere along the line.)
> Paul previously said:
>I disagree with your assertion that culture is
> identical with the social level. In the MOQ, culture is defined as
social
> *and* intellectual patterns.
>
> "I think a culture should be defined as social patterns plus
> intellectual patterns." [Pirsig, LILA'S CHILD Note 47]
Platt replied:
Except Pirsig also said:
"A culture can be defined as a network of social patterns of value."
(Lila, 8)
and:
"The social patterns in the next box down (marked "Social Patterns)
include such institutions as family, church and government. They are the
patterns of culture that the anthropologist and sociologist study."
(SODV)
Paul:
Okay, but in the "insanity" section, from which you derive your
intellect=individual argument, he is using culture in the sense of
social and intellectual patterns. This is evident when he says things
such as, "normal cultural intellectual patterns," and, "The deviant
dangerous source of illegal cultural patterns is first identified, then
isolated and finally destroyed as a cultural entity. That's what mental
hospitals are partly for. And also heresy trials. They protect the
culture from foreign ideas that if allowed to grow unchecked could
destroy the culture itself. Insanity is an intellectual pattern."
As such, my argument still stands. That section is about one set of 3rd
and 4th level values conflicting with another set of 3rd and 4th level
values as opposed to a conflict between 3rd and 4th levels values per
se.
> Paul previously said:
> Yes, but Pirsig's view is that the *source* of change is not a static
> force at all. His primary metaphysical division came from the insight
> that there has to be another source of change, *outside of* the values
that
> comprise culture (and "static" individuals), and he identifies this as
> Dynamic Quality, not the 4th static level.
Platt said:
Yes, but only a "living being" can respond to DQ.
" . . . societies and thoughts and principles themselves are no more
than sets of static patterns. These patterns can't by themselves
perceive or adjust to Dynamic Quality. Only a living being can do that."
(Lila, 13)
Paul:
I don't see how this is relevant to your argument that the 4th level is
an "individual level." Nowhere is "a living being" equated with
intellect, or a single static level of any description.
Platt said:
DQ doesn't create change all by itself. It works through individuals by
motivating them to change, individuals like the brujo, the contrarians
and yes, Pirsig himself.
Paul:
I think Dynamic Quality does *create* change all by itself, static
quality on the other hand, maintains the changes. Therefore, I would
argue that Dynamic Quality "works through," i.e. creates and changes the
*static patterns* from all levels from which individuals are composed.
What I think you have done is confuse the conflict between Dynamic and
static quality with the conflict between the 3rd and 4th levels. I think
you have done this because you place "the individual" as the highest
point of static evolution. But if you start to ask, "Should the
individual be free to do whatever he wishes?" and the answer your
metaphysics necessarily provides is, "Yes," one can ask if rape or
murder is amongst those rights, or stealing and burglary - after all,
all of these things are done by individuals and it would be, according
to your metaphysics, immoral for a society to stop this individual.
The MOQ, on the other hand, divides your individual into 4 levels and
consequently defends intellectual freedom from society, but not
biological freedom. But this intellectual freedom is also limited by the
rules that govern that level and also cannot bring about change itself.
Therefore, I would, as in previous posts, suggest that an individual is
free in terms of Dynamic Quality, as is neatly summed up in LILA:
"To the extent that one's behaviour is controlled by static patterns of
quality it is without choice. But to the extent that one follows Dynamic
Quality, which is undefinable, one's behaviour is free." [LILA Ch.12]
In the discussions of the brujo, contrarians, insanity and the death
penalty that you refer to in defence of your "individual level," it is
Dynamic Quality which is central and not any particular level.
Paul previously said:
> On the other hand, money can limit intellectual evolution by
> controlling research and can give social patterns the upper hand in
> intellectual-social conflicts such as democracy e.g. "cash for
questions,"
> campaign funding etc.
Platt said:
I don't understand "cash for questions."
Paul:
The phrase, I think, comes from the practice of members of Parliament
(in the UK, substitute your equivalent) accepting substantial cash
sums/gifts from "clients" to ask certain questions in Parliament.
Platt said:
It's because of clarity, precision, magnitude and elegance of one's
ideas allowed to bear fruit in a nation that covets individual freedom
that we, in the U.S., enjoy such a dynamic world.
Paul:
Not being from the U.S., I can't really comment on this claim. (It's a
shame, though, that certain intelligence reports, evidently lacking in
both clarity and precision, were also allowed to "bear fruit.")
Also, for the sake of clarity and precision, are you saying that
intellectual quality is the dominant measure of success in the U.S.? Or
are you substituting "individual" for "intellectual" and then saying
that individual quality is the dominant measure of success in the U.S.?
Platt said:
As Pirsig says, we've accomplished this in spite of our ignorance of DQ.
My point was how much better it might be if more of us became aware of
DQ's reality as well as the rational morality of the MOQ instead of
amoral SOM metaphysics that pervades our "culture."
Paul:
I agree with that!
Cheers
Paul
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