1. First things first
2. Ceremonies
Hi David B. and Focs,
Dave and I have tended to talk past each other, at times with contempt.
Now as the month is closing, let me address a couple his points directly.
(Dave, this should leave you enough time to get in the last word before the
deadline)
DAVID B. (23rd March) provided the following Pirsig quote:-
<<< He [Phaedrus] was pleased to discover that the slips themselves made this
organizing
much easier. Instead of asking "Where does this metaphysics begin?" - which
was a virtually impossible question - all he had to do was just hold up two
slips and ask, "Which comes first?" This was easy and he always seemed to
get an answer. >>>
DAVID B. also comments:
>The first time I read Lila I thouhgt it was a little disappointing that he
>didn't tell us more about what was on those slips of paper.
It is also notable that Pirsig doesn't tell us how he judges which slip to put
first, neither does he need to.
He already gave us the answer in ZAMM, when he had the students ranking each
others' papers.
The point is that there are no real rules, or rather, the rules are what one
comes to after GENERALIZING the choices that have been made. This seems to be
the whole essence of the Quality idea.
The other theme that emerges is that the first choice is not necessarily the
best one, and rearrangements are always permitted.
============================
DAVID B. (On the "ceremonies" theme)
<<<In fact, I've noticed that the posters who wish to downplay the
"peyote illumination" express opinions about mysticism that
demonstrate a lack of understanding. I forget who said the Indians' lack of
ceremony, for example, was somehow not mystical. ...
[okay, that was me]
...But I think that was Pirsig's point in
talking about the lack of ceremony in that teepee. Ritual is the
static form of religion. Ritual is the static behavior, the same actions and
words
are repeated over and over, like a Catholic Mass. The lack of ceremony is a hint
about the Dynamic quality in the Indians' religion.>>>
David, let me ask you to look back at my post of 24th March, where I compared
the teepee "ceremony" and the bar-room "ceremony" (picking up Lila).
Specifically, do you accept that both scenarios are ritualistic (as you put it,
the same actions and words repeated over and over)?
Can you please explain what you see to be the difference between the teepee and
the bar-room, and is this difference mystical?
Jonathan
MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org
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