Rick and Foci.
You wrote:
> Bodvar,
> Great post. However, you wrote:
> "That is why I so much want to:
> > 1) Avoid treating Q-intellect as "mind" of SOM, but rather...
> > 2) See it as freedom from Social value, preferbably...
> > 3) Regard it as subject-object logic itself."
> This third statement is a reference to your SOLAQI idea, right? I
> have a question about the theory.
Yes it is and thanks raising these immensely interesting and
important objections. To get my reply inside this "free" month I
better hurry.
> The MoQ isn't SOL, (I believe your SOLAQI idea states that the MoQ
> contains SOL, which I agree with), but RMP states that the MoQ
> itself is also an Intellectual pattern.
He does, I admit, and has also said that the Q-intellect may be
compared to the "mind" (in a letter to Anthony McWatt) but added
that the mind expression should be avoided, so it's a little
mysterious, but it all hinges on that very point.
The original version of how the MOQ contains SOL is that the
Inorganic & Organic are objective while the Social & Intellectual are
subjective. I call it "the weak interpretation" of the MOQ (not
derogatory). While the SOLAQI is the "strong" (as in quantum
mech.).
> So... if the MoQ contains
> SOL (as its Intellectual level) and the Intellectual level contains
> the MoQ (as a high Q-Intellectual pattern) then haven't we got a
> little problem in the heirarchy???
The MOQ as an Q-Intellectual pattern is the very problem that the
SOLAQI is solving. Did you notice Marco in his "time" thread
speaking of distinguishing between time "as our idea of time and
time as an (allegedly) inorganic pattern? The Intellect=mind notion
makes the MOQ inherit the SOM "everything in the mind" paradox.
How, can we avoid admitting that in that sense EVERYTHING is
Intellectual patterns? No, that's a blind alley.
According to the SOLAQI the Q-Intellect isn't a quantum jump to
an abstract mindish realm where thoughts and ideas reside in an
internal hierarchy of value, but merely a continuation of the static
value-building sequence i.e: all levels start as part of the former.
>From such a static level an escape is possible while the mindish
intellect is hermetically closed - everything is mind!!!
The SOLAQI asserts that the MOQ is an Intellectual value that has
started on a "purpose of it's own" and will become a separate value
level eventually. Now, THIS raises the problem of the MOQ-level
being part of itself, but I think that is the G–del theorem striking: a
theory proposing to cover everything must necessarily contain
itself.
I have always believed that the
> Intellectual level, while it does "contain" S/O logic, ultimately
> refers to an expanded rationality.
Expanded rationality, yes, if life is seen as "expanded matter",
society as "expanded life" and intellect as "expanded society"
...whops, the latter was a good metaphor which oust the mind
notion!
> This expanded rationality (which
> I believe is a central theme of ZMM as well as LILA) accounts for
> reasoning about matters of value and morality--- which are quite
> outside of the boundaries of SOL.
Yes, exactly, subject-object logic sees everything in its SO matrix
something that supports the SOL-as-Intellect idea. A static level
isn't "aware" of anything above itself but sees everything below in
its own light. Q-Intellect sees society (it does not see it in any Q
sense) as the source of all subjectivity, while self is pure objectivity.
> This rationality was explored in
> the 1950s by the Belgian rhetorician Chaim Perelman (among others),
> who I've mentioned before in this forum to little fanfare.
Now you have me interested.
> Do you
> know his works--- they're an excellent philosophical/rhetorical
> counterpart to Pirsig on many points.
No, but as said I will try to look into it. Does any of Perelman's
work exist on the web. Well, I can search.
> I'll cut this off before I go
> further out on this tangent. It's all Good, Rick
Me too. I would have liked to - again - have a go at the value
increase view on the levels which avoids the Intellect=mind fallacy,
yet explains WHY Intellect got its mind quality.
Thanks for staying with me.
Bo
MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:03:20 BST